LMS Patriot Project Updates

Our tender frames are brand new. Both inner and outer. The tender wheels are from the tender that was left at Barry. And as you say, one of the bogie wheelsets is from 48518.

The white metalling is about to be sent out to be redone correctly.

 

Being so close to the project I have to say that it's not grim at all. Yes you are correct in that there is a lot of work done by 3rd party contractors that you would expect to be done to a much higher standard than what has actually been done, both on the tender frames and the chassis. There is no doubt a naivety from ourselves, many of us within the project were not involved in locomotive restoration or building prior to this project, and you tend to believe what people in the "know" are telling you. But going forward, the team at Crewe are now putting those issues right on the chassis, the guys from Leaky Finders in Devon are putting right the issues on the tender frames, and we will soon be in a position where we will be back on top and going forward with progress rather than re doing what was done. To be fair, as you can see from Nigel's pictures, work on things like the lubrication already is far more advanced than what it was previously.

I hope you will understand that I'm not going to be talking about finance as that is between the project and 3rd parties and until they have sorted it out there is nothing to say.

The last 18 months to 2 years have been the hardest that I have ever experienced in terms of being frustrated at lack of progress, issues, etc, but finances have and still are coming in well, I would say 99% of loco groups would love to have our income, and recently we have had some excellent new volunteers get onboard who will see this project through to completion and more. I honestly look forward to the next 12 months and can only see things coming together. The tender in Devon , the boiler at Huyton , and the chassis at Crewe are all now going forward.

Kind regards Gavin

 

I don't think that you are alone in having to re-do work on the tender and chassis. I seem to recall similar happening with Tornado in the earlier days and the boiler didn't exactly get of to the best of starts. The Clan project has also had setbacks. Sitting back and letting contractors get on with the work for you is indeed a naive approach. There isn't such a thing as a caring, considerate contractor, even though they will all tell you they are. You need to be visiting regularly and inspecting all work as it goes along. You certainly need a final snagging inspection before taking delivery and settling the bill. Back in days of yesterday, the likes of the LMS would employ a full time inspector at the works of manufacturers building locos, etc, for them just to ensure quality of work was maintained and no shortcuts taken. We all make mistakes and fail to finish jobs and will try and get away with fudges and by hiding it if we can and that doesn't just apply to individuals. We are supported by a cottage industry and even some of the better known names in the business aren't squeaky clean in this respect.

 

Having been a contractor in the Heritage Railway scene in an earlier life (early 80s) you are only as good as your last job. We took enormous pride in the jobs that we were contracted to do. Even to the extent of going the extra mile for someone who really could not afford the full price. If you turn out work that isn’t really up to scratch word soon gets around and work might dry up. A good reputation is had to get but oh so easy to loose.

 

2+2=5? I can't see any mention of any name including Mr Riley in Steve's post. Bitter experience has shown me never to fully trust any contractor however good or even well they have performed in the past, the old saying give them an inch, or they'll take a mile etc etc really does apply and as anyone who actually has had hands on metal (rather than the so called armchair expert) knows if you give a contractor a free reign without checking their work you get what you deserve. Some contractors are better than others, but to blindly accept anyone's work just because they have say worked for the NRM is a tad foolhardy, you need to work together as a team so both you and the contractor are both smiling at the end of the exercise.


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On the subject of contractors you need to specify clearly what you want. Some years ago whilst clearing the route for the M6 there was a wood in the way. A price was negotiated with the contractor per tree and double for stumps as they were more difficult and there was no wood to sell on.
Contract was let and two days before starting 'someone' with a chainsaw came along and felled all the trees, took the wood and left the stumps. My father caught such a rollocking for agreeing a stumps price he drilled it in to us to triple check every contract and look for any possible loopholes. A contractor does it for the money.

 

Working in a completely different field, for a contracting company, my experience is that customers who are actively involved and keep closely in touch with the work tend to get the best results - up to the point at which it becomes micromanagement.


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As you say, I mentioned no contractors in my post nor did I hint at any. If Ralph seems to think that the cap fits certain organisations, that is his opinion.

 

Why is the Patriot Project pushing for a support coach with all the current problems?

Wouldn't it be better to concentrate on resolving the probs, get the engine running and then think about it?



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When building a new steam locomotive it is advisable to have an engineer with experience of building / erecting such locomotives & also be in possession of a full set of the relevant drawings.

Bob.

 

The first of those yes; the second not necessarily possible - there will be plenty of examples where drawings have to be done by the team, either because the originals don't exist at all; or else minor design changes for modern conditions or materials necessitate new drawings; or simply to create drawings that external manufacturers can work with. There are parts of design that originally almost certainly never had any drawings - the workshops having the experience to "fit as appropriate" - but where drawings are now considered desirable or essential.

What is interesting about the Patriot is that, viewed somewhat from afar, they appear to be a "marketing and funding led" organisation (*). They have been very adept at selling the concept of a new Patriot loco and getting a wide range of people to help pay for it; but seem to have relied on external help to a significant degree for the engineering. I'd contrast that with, say, "Beachy Head" which strikes me as very engineering-led with most of the significant work done in house (and all the erection and fitting); relative to the Patriot, it is raising money more slowly (though also spending somewhat less: it will cost perhaps £100k per year for 12 - 15 years). The P2 seems got be an example of a project which is engineering led at its core, but also very effective at the marketing and fundraising side.

There's nothing inherently wrong with being a marketing-led organisation in those terms, except to note as others have that if you contract out significant parts of the build, you have to spend considerable effort in oversight by someone with sufficient knowledge to do so. The fact that the loco appears to have to be being partly disassembled to rectify earlier work is a sign that that oversight is perhaps not all it should have been. Hopefully lessons learned for the future, if only to avoid the cost of needlessly redoing work.

(*) This is not meant as a criticism.

Tom

 

A very good question. And one we did have a think about internally. But our view came down to this.
How often does a mk1 mainline registered support coach become available? Our view was not very often. Also without knowing how much money is in our bank which is already waiting to be put towards the resolution of chassis and tender, it's easy to ask that question. But if there happens to be enough to keep us going for a good while, and then knowing how much we already raise anyway, with good planning be able to slot this allocation of £100k in and it not effect the build.

There is only so much money you can throw at something before people would get in each others way. I hope that makes sense?

 

And absolutely fair comment and assessment. There are far to many people who are unable to accept any sort of criticism and will come up with all sorts of excuses as to why something does or doesn't happen. I am not one of those. Hence why I even said in a previous post that we as a project have been very nieive, and I think that is enough to write on a public forum.

@Thompson1706 in an ideal world yes it would be fantastic to have all the drawings, and those new build groups that do are very lucky, but when you only have 10% to start with and have managed to get to where we are now, with relatively few issues untill the last 2 years, not many of which I would say are to do with drawings, is a pretty good achievement.

 

There seems to me to be a degree of sycophancy in your posts on this subject. How do you know that Ian Riley hasn't been involved in disputes? Such matters are generally kept confidential and eventually resolved to the satisfaction of both parties. The fact that they do not make headlines doesn't mean that they don't happen. I am not saying that Ian Riley is the paragon of perfection that you portray, nor am I saying he isn't, what I am saying is that if isn't we are unlikely to hear of it till things go spectacularly wrong. After all, given the amount of contract work being carried out at Llangollen, who would have expected the problems encountered by the Patriot Group there?

 

What ever was before dose not matter. All the issues are being addressed including the quote above. We have the identified the issues both physical and management which are being addressed. I don't like seeing the speculation. Be happy that good progress is now being made to get the engine sorted and completed.

 

For those who haven't noticed, there's a new Engineering Update on the LMS Patriot Project Web-site.


I was interested to see this in it:

All bearings need to be re-done. Llangollen Railway Engineering as the original suppliers were asked to do the work at their own cost and under our supervision, but have so far not committed to doing the work due to staffing issues. We have received a quotation from Statfold Barn Engineering to undertake the work which is under consideration. The costs involved will be recovered from Llangollen Engineering.

That last sentence was 'interesting' (for a variety of reasons).


Well, my best to the project, and I hope all goes well for them from here on out.

Noel

 

Having followed the link above I’m confused. Is the report for February or end April ?


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An interesting saga of misfit issues indeed, this new build seems to have more problems than most, unless they are simply more open or demanding.