Border Raider 13/04/19

Isn’t it Network Rail and not the charter operator or the TOC that do the pathing and timings?

 

I think this topic has been discussed before and the answer has been that the TOC can suggest paths to NR which NR can then have a look at and accept, reject, tweak. So it can become a bit of a conversation.

It strikes me that this is one advantage of the Tornado/Clan Line model. NR know what they're dealing with, whereas if the loco is from a pool, there isn't the same basis for having the conversation. The downside of that model is if the loco goes tech.

The best available path over Shap is still the 1125 from Carnforth northbound non stop to Carlisle 1240. If the A1LST/DB could get that path one week next year when WCR are going to Blackpool to do this years tour n/b over Shap, s/b over the S and C, water stop at say Oubeck, then a very fast time from Carnforth N Jct to Carlisle might be on. Fantasy gricing, sorry.

 

A few days have gone by and time to assess what a magnificent climb of Shap it was; those of us on board knew it was special but Where’s Mazeppa? #55 confirmed it was the fastest (joint) with preserved steam. All the key elements fell into place as Big Al #56 pointed out, it was a challenging path and the crew willingly accepted the challenge. Add to this the other traffic was “behaving itself”, good weather and railhead conditions, a big loco in excellent nick and presumably good coal.

In his post, Where’s Mazeppa? tried to find some solace for us LMS fans (beaten on our own line by two LNER locos!) My previous “best run” was a very recent one, 46233 (CME 22 July 2017), driver Mick Kelly, fireman Nigel Barber and load also 11 coaches. The seemingly ever cautioning hand of 46233’s custodian was absent, or ignored. This run was never going to beat the record as it had a pathing stop at Plumpton, but from then on it became ever closer . . . (60163 in brackets)

Penrith – 54 (74 – no pathing stop)

MP 48¼ [foot of 1/125r] – 63.6 (73.6)

MP 40 [top of 1/142r] – 58.3 (59.5)

MP 48¼ to MP 40 – 8m 19s (7m 55s)

Both locos settled around 60 on the upper part of the bank. It was 3¾ miles into the climb (around MP44½) before 60163 dropped below 61. 46233 with its much lower speed fell below 61 after less than ¾ mile. Once the initial momentum was lost and raw power becomes the order of the day, things became much more equal on the upper part of the climb.

The final 4 miles before the level at Shap village, MP 44 to MP 40, took Tornado 4m 00s (av. 60 mph), whilst DoS took 4m 04s (av. 59 mph) – “close but no cigar”

“Fastest is fastest” and Tornado wins. The slightly higher climbing speed would also suggest slightly higher edhp from Tornado (maybe only 1-2% more). From his posts I see that Sean Emmett was on board; I hope that he will post an assessment of edhp. No amount of moving the goalposts can produce a win for the Duchess on home turf but it does illustrate what a fine run it was on the CME (and an even better one on the Raider).

My abiding memories, Tornado’s exhaust hissing and snarling contrasting with Duchess of Sutherland’s heavy exhaust booming out across the fells. Happy days!

 

Talking about the 39 minute allowance, I was on Pathfinder's Shap Attack of 29th November 1997. My friend John who I was with on the day found the article below and table in one of the much missed Mike Notley's retrospectives. Just dropped it in out of interest.

 

Gets worse at 74!

 

An old colleague would often trot out the maxim, "I'm not as good as I once was, but I'm as good once as ever I was". I never knew to what he was referring

 

Mods-- please move last few posts to old codgers general hydraulics discussion thread.

 

It’s those very long 20-22 hour days which start at 0300. In the days of steam I thought nothing of a double overnight bashing steam. Sorry Mods very off subject

 

Have been busy so have taken a while to type this up. Firstly the outward trip, log attached.

A steady start from Crewe on the down slow to let a Pendolino overtake, then opened up nicely to achieve 75 well before Hartford. Then braked down to 60 and ran easy - were the crews getting messages of delays ahead?

Signal checked into the down loop platform at Warrington Bank Quay, where the Pendo was still waiting in P3. Eventually it moved off and we soon followed, gingerly at first. Another nice climb past Winwick Jn, but I need a bit more time to work out the average gradient here to do a worthwhile output calculation.

Max 65 after Golborne then checked to 47 - I think this was a unit heading to Ormskirk - then back up to 55 through Wigan and 58 at the bottom of the 1:104, speed falling only gradually to 56. By the time the rear coach passed under the bridge at Boars Head (8m 60c) speed was on the rise again and the summit at Coppull Hall was breasted at 64, with a 75 max before Balshaw Lane Jn. I calculate the climb to Boars Head was worth an impressive 2,329 edhp.

A signal check at Lostock Hall for two late running service trains didn't spoil a competent climb of the 1:99/101 to Hoghton summit at around 45 mph, worth 1,989 edhp.

Another signal stop after Daisyfield Jn spoilt the (easier) northbound climb to Wilpshire summit, but we got away in fine style to reach 40 mph on the climb, a good enough speed for runs that aren't checked!

The limit over Whalley viaduct has been raised from 30 to 45 in recent years so it feels less of a trundle. Not much performance interest to Hellifield with a 45 mph ruling limit, the couple of miles of 1:101 past Rimington saw speed fall from 40 to 37 mph, worth 1,375 edhp.

As I said on the day, not a classic climb of the long drag but pleasant enough nevertheless. A brisk downhill start with speed reaching 59 at Settle Jn in just over 2 miles from Long Preston. But speed fell off rapidly to 46 through Settle, where I calculate the output was only 1,214 edhp, and down to 36 at the end of the 1:100 before the gradient eases around Helwith Bridge.

Speed recovered to 43 and settled down to 38 on the 1:100, representing 1,521 edhp around Selside. I reckon the whole climb from Settle Jn to Blear Moor boxes was worth an average of 1,338 edhp, including the enforced 30 mph slowing over Ribblehead viaduct. Before the loco was eased for the slack the average output from Settle Jn works out at 1,432 edhp.

Downhill its a case of managing the brakes to keep to the 60 limit. With the train well ahead of schedule Tornado took the minor humps in the Eden valley in its stride and arrival was a useful 17 mins early.

Return trip including power outputs and further comparisons with historic runs to follow...

 

@Oswald T Wistle 's gps data is available for the S&C climb in graph form here:
https://settlecarlislesteam.co.uk/2019/13th-april-2019-the-border-raider

 

That shows it all rather nicely, especially the two easings in the ruling 1:100 and the slack at Ribblehead.

 

I think I have read that this run tied with one behind 60532, but the best I can find is 4 seconds slower

 

Strewth ..............listen to the young uns moaning on..............get a grip of yourselves, you're mere children yet, wait until you're old like wot I am.

 

That was on 10th July 1999

 

I am fascinated by how records are claimed, how they are challenged, and how they are verified. So much so, that, moving on from my original look at this (my first impressions were recorded in post #55) I have taken another look at what was recorded for Blue Peter's July 1999 run and 1020 Shireman's very detailed log which he has kindly posted so that we can all share in what was clearly a superb performance.

And in my mind, there is no doubt that Tornado should enjoy the "Fastest Southbound Climb in Preservation" accolade, partly on the basis of the one-coach greater load, and partly because there was a clear margin of advantage at the Shap Summit Board - 37m 49c. I think I can see where the four seconds advantage to Tornado mentioned above comes from - (34m 36s versus 34m 40s), but looking at the detail of the two logs, the Blue Peter time is taken at a point 9 chains north of 102o Shireman's time for Tornado. So in reality - Tornado might well be considered to have been around 11 seconds ahead of Blue Peter at the Summit Board.

Except that the position of the timer in the formation has a bearing on this, and for a truly accurate assessment, this needs to be taken into account as well. 1020 Shireman's commentary confirms his position in the second coach (behind the POB) whereas the supporting detail for Blue Peter's run indicates that timings were taken from a 8/11 position, which on a 10 coach formation must be the seventh coach. So a five second adjustment would be appropriate at the prevailing speeds recorded in the respective logs to reflect five coach-lengths of difference in the position of the recorders.

So working back from these assumptions and adjustments, I reckon that Blue Peter was about 2 seconds faster to 38m 20c, was just overtaken by Tornado over the next quarter mile to give an advantage to the latter of no more than - or maybe just a whisker above - one second at the (MP38) top of the Climbing Section as described by 1020 Shiremans's landmark, but then progressively improving towards the summit board to around 6 seconds advantage at that point.

So, a clear winner, but a very, very close call at the conclusion of the Climbing Section - Tornado a winner by a very short head. But Blue Peter fully deserving of recognition as an outstanding runner up - the more so in view of the injector or other problems that the locomotive was experiencing in the very final phases of the climb that had pulled the speed down quite sharply after MP39.

As ever, and as a relative novice in examining detailed issues of locomotive performance and timing, other opinions or interpretations would be valued.

 

Maybe as CJA would have said honours even

 

I'd go along with that, with two additional comments.
Differences in the wind speed and direction on different days could produce more than the few seconds differences between those two runs.
And all such performances depend on the firemen shovelling the coal.