Brighton Atlantic: 32424 Beachy Head

Just do em black!

 

It would appear to me that a LBSCR K class would replicate a lot of parts on the H2 Atlantic 'Beachy Head'.

The cylinders and valve gear might be pretty much the same.

I still don't understand why the front pony truck on the LBSCR K class causes problems, and results in it being ruled out.

Cheers,

Julian

 

My understanding is it is more general complexity: for example, having to fit air and vac brakes; the air-operated screw reverser and clutch is far more expensive than a steam reverser; having to use a Weir pump rather than injectors for the feed; the superheated boiler is far more expensive than a saturated one. Plus the space between the frames is worse for fitting everything in, on account of smaller wheels, particularly without a pit in Atlantic House making access awkward. I’m not sure of the frame arrangement on a K class, but on Beachy Head there was a joggle in each frame plate that as I recall proved almost impossible to find anyone willing to produce back then, and would I believe now be impossible. The E has straight frame plates. Add in the parts already available (primarily a significant amount of the tender) and ultimately the estimate for those producing it is that they can envisage completing an E in a reasonable timescale, but not a K.

Tom

 

Hi Tom,

Many thanks for your reply.

I still don't understand why the quoted pony truck causes problems, and you have not commented on this.

The H2 Atlantic has superheating, so no problem.

The H2 Atlantic has an air operated reverser; so the guys have done this already and could do it again. They have also done all the brake stuff for the H2, and could do it again, so no problem.

You could take a view that a K class would be as modified with injectors later on and at a stroke would remove another of your objections, so no problem.

I am not personally aware of any frame complications or problems with the LBSCR K class; in fact quite the opposite as the K class survived en masse without any frame problems till suddenly withdrawn in 1962 and all still operable and without any problems despite considerable hard work in both WW1 and WW2.

I think the Bluebell would get considerable support for the underestimated K class which did the donkey work for the LBSCR in WW1 and WW2, and missed out on preserving one thanks to Horace May. Forget the LNER V2s, the LBSCR K class contributed far more to both WW1 and WW2 than probably any other loco. If John Pelham Maitland was still around, he would no doubt agree with me.

I can't see the same for the SECR E class. Pretty much the same loco - the SECR D class - is already preserved in the NRM. And it isn't a Brighton loco either.

Anyway just my own viewpoint.

Cheers,
Julian

 

I must admit that the the reasoning behind choosing the SE&CR E class rather then the K class is entirely logical and also makes more sense when you think of the Bluebell Railway C&W'S aim of creating a 'Trio-set' and the intended (Long-Term) restoration of the 'American-Car' Pullman "Constantine" which would be ideal train to hang on the back of a new E. And while a 'D' does survive, the NRM have clearly stated which engines it thinks will run and the D is defiantly not on it.

However as someone who become very interested in the way of the 'Brighton', I do feel disappointed that the only chance of building a K may now have gone, as I think it was an engine type very worthy of preservation. In fact I feel the K was the best engine the LB&SCR ever produced, being powerful, reliable, do anything machines. I not blaming the Bluebell and other early preservationists for not saving an original one, cause I'm led to believe at the time the Bluebell couldn't afford it, not helped by the early withdrawal of the Ks thanks to an accountant decided to withdraw the whole class of recently overhauled engines.

But I was having hopes that a K was one the cards after the completion of Beachy Head thanks to discussions over the years, so I am now bit disappointed. As I was born in 1985 I obviously not been able to see one, so it would have been an project which I would (admittedly in a very very minor way) supported.

Frustratingly last year we had a carrot dangled in front of us of having a 'Brighton' K in the computer program, Train Simulator 2019 (as it is now), but that was cancelled for unknown reasons last September, and that surprisingly hurt more then it really probably should have done. This has reminded me of those feelings...

 

The H2 started off with a boiler so no doubt with that as a starting point, the costs of the superheating circuit were seen as acceptable. The costs of a brand new boiler with superheating are in a different league entirely.

 

It's harsh to say the chance of seeing a K class built has gone - it will merely fall to a different generation to do it. If anything the 'easier' SE&CR E class represents an opportunity to prepare new blood to take on the big jobs like a K and rebuild of the Radial etc.

Regards,

Dan

 

Hi Julian

As I understand Tom, the issue with these items was the time and cost incurred by their complexity, not the technical capability. Having done them once with the Atlantic, they know the work involved and how long it takes. How long will Beachy Head have taken? They clearly want to complete the E class faster than that.

 

Time to branch to a new thread, South Eastern E class perhaps?

 

I'd agree this doesn't seen the most appropriate place for this discussion and sorry if this sounds like nit-picking, but until/unless there's some firm announcement from the Bluebell, surely "Current and Proposed New-Builds" is the more appropriate thread?

 

I object being called harsh

The beachy head guys have knowledge of 'complex' Brighton engines and that will be lost when they have pass away. The young ones won't have that now-how if they trained on a 'simple' locomotive. Considering the way engineering in the UK is going no one else will either

 

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned a C2X as a future project. Strong historical connection to the Bluebell, simpler than the atlantic (and possibly a K), fills a greater gap in the lineup of surviving Brighton engines than an E class would do for Chatham engines.

 

It seems to me, to attract funding, an SECR class E is pretty much a non starter and doesn't have that special appeal - unless someone has already pledged a significant sum just for this particular class. The IOWSR are going to restore the sole surviving LBSCR E class 0-6-0T due to a very generous donation specifically for the project, so these things do happen.

And a point about the SECR E class being a simple 'new' build - it does have a belpaire firebox, which to my mind is quite complicated and expensive compared to say Matt's suggestion of a LBSCR class C2X, which would be my second choice.

LBSCR J1 'Abergavenny' I personally think is as beautiful as any loco built at Brighton. It also has H2 type cylinders and wheels, and a simple round top firebox.

I did trawl through the online NRM archive of LBSCR drawings a few years back, and I suppose the availability of original drawings is also a factor. Perhaps there is a complete set of SECR E class drawings still extant? I don't know myself, as I have no interest in the SECR. As a set of drawings for the H2 Atlantics survived, plus of course the Terriers, I would be quite surprised if the LBSCR K class drawings hadn't also survived, though I didn't take any particular note of this when I did my trawl.

No one has yet explained why the LBSCR K class was ruled out as a 'new' build due to stated complexities with the front bogie.

It also would not be inappropriate for Atlantic House and their very skilled and experienced team to simply take on a thorough overhaul and rebuild of 'Fenchurch', 'Stepney', and Adams Radial tank 488, or help out with the SECR P class restoration.

For a solid operating department loco, a 'new' build LBSCR K class would be ideal for The Bluebell, and far more suitable than an SECR class E 'new' build IMHO.

Cheers,

Julian

 

Can’t we just agree that the Atlantic team are the ones building it and they can build what they want...?

I’ll admit I was really hoping for a replica of Abergavenny or Remembrance (anything Brighton to be honest), but I’m not the one putting in the hours in Atlantic House!



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Ah, the old "I don't like the idea so it won't attract funding" argument.

 

Why should a group within the BRPS decide what to do just amongst themselves because they as individuals want to, for whatever reason? And ignoring other considerations.

"Sod it, they may all want a LBSCR K class, or J1 'Abergavenny', or a Craven loco, but we have decided we are going to build a non-Brighton loco because we want to".

And to me the choice of an SECR E class seems perverse, as is the decision making, and whole set up for the decision on a SECR E class so far.

Cheers,

Julian

 

Because they're the ones who have to build and project manage the damn thing!
I share the opinion that an SECR E class doesn't fill a particularly obvious gap, and doing something LBSCRish feels more right, but the way you're going about berating this decision is rather off IMHO.

Personally I think picking a loco to build from scratch largely based on how easy it is to build is a bit odd. If that was your aim you wouldn't be building a new loco at all, you'd be overhauling an existing one. All locos are hard to build from scratch. We're only talking about an extra, what, 10% costs for something that people really want? If folk really want an E class just as much then fine, but I don't recall it being mentioned even on NatPres as a WIBN!
The K class would be a satisfying loco to build given its history with the Bluebell and the lamentations about how close it got. But Tom makes a well argued case as to why it would be quite expensive and complicated. I don't really see why that makes an E class the only other obvious choice though, given past discussions on this subject. (and I accept that is all I have to go on!)
A 2-4-0 of some description would get my vote and would seem to fill a bigger gap in preservation than another Edwardian 4-4-0.

 

Can't argue with that sort of logic. I've just written a cheque for £50

 

And why should they build a K class just because you want it?
I’ve an idea, a bit radical maybe, but if a K Class is so important to you, put together a business case for it along with costings, convince the Bluebell board that it should be done and then launch the project.
I’ve never seen an E Class so would be more than happy if this project comes to fruition and I get the chance to experience one in the flesh before I’m pushing up the daisies.

 

Without prejudice to anyone's choice of newbuild ..... and just for the record:

There is in fact have a K class in existence, built to original works drawings by none other than Lawson Billinton. It's a 91/2" gauge model, in private ownership somewhere and presumably contains all the information required to recreate the problematic Brighton Bogie. Whether there's a set of drawings with it is another matter!