LSWR T3 563

Is that the carriage livery of the Titfield Thunderbolt?

Sorry...

 

Macleod wasn't an idiot in the late 1940s. He was a stickler for livery details.

Salmon pink is - well - salmon pink! It is quite simple really. Don't know why the NRM 6474 is black and above an 'orange red'. For the Waterloo Centenary, with 563, it would have been in 'salmon pink' upper half, and brown below. Macleod's paint specification survives, both for the coach and 563.

(1520 on the Bluebell is now painted how 6474 was painted for the Waterloo Centenary, and how the restored Royal saloon is now painted in last years's Channel 4 programme).

Cheers,

Julian

 

Certainly the Bluebell's 1520 is a lot more weathered than 6474 in the NRM. I agree that the latter looks very orange ( too orange?) but I wonder if this is due to the camera's color interpretation rather that the true color. That said the M7's color looks about right and sits very well on any LSWR loco, especially when it has a Drummond chimney and not that horrible Adams stove pipe affair (but please do not feel you have to disagree with me on that one - it's just my personal opinion and I don't expect it to count for much).

Peter

 

I have to agree about the colours detailed in the quoted post. The Bluebell one does fit in with what I have seen portrayed, from time to time, in print. The NRM version does tend to make one reach for darkened lenses.
The livery is reminiscent of the American Great Northern.


I suspect the first to wear these colours was the L&SWR. I don't know whether the GN (USA) copied or decided without reference, but interestingly the Southern Railway (USA) wore a livery inspired by the post grouping Southern Railway (UK). The livery was used on principal express locos.

 

Has that carriage been repainted since 1948? In other words, is the colour it now carries a later scheme, or the 1948 paint subject to 60-odd years of aging?

As for Macleod - he may have been a stickler for livery details, but the overhaul must have been done quickly, to the extent that the guards duckets and windows are only an approximation of what would have existed as built. More curiously, the carriage retained its final SR number when repainted into LSWR livery. I don't know if there was a specific operational reason for that (not wishing to duplicate the number of another existing carriage) or whether it was a simple oversight with the paintshop foreman not being given any specific instructions, so simply re-applying the original number?

Tom

 

Having seen both vehicles, albeit in very different lighting, I find 1520 much pinker than 6474 and, to my eye, also significantly brighter.


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Hi Tom,

Of course 6474 has been repainted since the Waterloo Centenary!

Cheers,
Julian

 

I cannot remember when it was repainted (possible at the same time as the M7 it is attached to) Tom but the condition of the paint is far too good for it to have survived since 1948. I would guess it was done sometime in the 1990s

Peter

 

I think the LSWR carriage was restored by the NRM in 1986 including repainting. If you look in the book British Railway carriages of the 20th century by David Jenkinson (who was an NRM employee), there are two pictures in there of it being restored and it gives the date as 1986. It refers to it as No 3598. One of the pictures shows the bare roof boards with the caption that it is ready for new roof canvas.

 

Many thanks to 35B and torgormaig for the links to open-air pictures of the M7 and coach at the NRM, and to Jamessqaured for the comprehensive explanation of the intricacies of LSWR "salmon" and how it darkened with exposure to sulphurous fumes. I had been puzzled as to why the paint would darken rather than fade with weathering, but conversion of Lead White pigment to (black) Lead Sulphide explains. For the LSWR, this issue was presumably most acute for vehicles that spent a lot of time in the smog-laden area of Inner London. I do wonder how long paint jobs lasted on those railway companies that served heavy industrial areas but used white or off-white upper panels in their carriage liveries (e.g. LNWR & Caledonian).

The upper panels of the NRM coach, as seen in open-air, do seem to match Hamilton Ellis' description of "terracotta" for LSWR coaches that had been subject to a period of ageing and weathering. Whereas I assume that the Bluebell's coach restorers aimed for the appearance of a freshly-painted LSWR coach.

Changing the subject to that of the loco colours, I attach a couple of photos that I took a few years ago. The first shows the M7 alongside NER 1621 in the NRM Station Hall in 2011. Note that, even under the subdued lighting, the NER green livery still appears bright and yellowish, whereas the M7 green looks deeper and less yellow than in the open-air photos. The second photo again shows NER 1621, this time alongside LSWR 563 at Shildon in 2012 - comparing NER "saxony-green" with LSWR Adams pea-green.

 

I may be in a minority but I prefer the Adams green, but then I also like the stovepipe.

 

I’ve mentioned this before on other threads but the Ken Hooke Trust has a swatch of NER Saxony green plus lining that came from Darlington and was the reference colour. It is kept in darkness so should not have aged. I have been able to compare it with the various NER painted locos in the NRM and none of them matched the swatch. I’m not sure that it matters. At the end of the day there would have been variations in any manual mix. Even with modern mixing equipment noticeable variations can occur between batches. It is subjective.

 

deleted. Duplicate post.

 

I don't know that I would place money on that. Whilst UV is the main destroyer of colour there may also be chemical changes. And its been a very long time...

 

There may well be but, at the end of the day, it is the best evidence we have of Saxony green as used by the NER. I doubt better evidence exists of any of the paint colours used by the pre-grouping railways which, after all this time, can only be subjective.

 

Indeed many people insisted that the maroon used by British Railways on the likes of Duchess of Hamilton was different to that used by the LMS, which in turn was different to that used by the Midland. That's in-spite of all three maroons being made to the same specification! The "Test Centre" at Derby in it's day had several large metal panels paint with various type of paint outside in all weathers to see how they reacted and weathered. Mind story has it that on occasion the sample panels kept indoors would be given a new coat of paint now and then in the dead of night, so that the newer paint matched...

 

Stovepipe? Adams boiler? Adams livery ...... I'm always right about subjective stuff. Mind you, so's everyone else!

 

Minority here, maybe, but I like seeing Victorian and edwardian stuff in its later condition, so for me it would be Southern green with the later type chimney. LBSC Stroudley locos are a good example, in their as built condition, in that yellow colour, to me, they look too pretty and ornamental, I think they look much better with the later extended smoke boxes and in black, makes them look more workmanlike.

 

The E4, B473 looks the mutt's nuts in Southern green. I'd love to see the H class treated likewise at some point. It would then be another engine able to present a "throwback to the 30s" look on the Bluebell, being a class occasionally seen between Lewes and East Grinstead between the wars.
...And I'm aware that I'm veering a bit off-topic here

 

It's the early Southern "true" olive green that suits B473 so well as it does W11 in the IOW.