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West Somerset Railway General Discussion

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by gwr4090, Nov 15, 2007.

  1. Forestpines

    Forestpines Well-Known Member

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    Does he still own a bus company? I thought the Weston firm had collapsed before he took over the WSR - wasn't there some scandal about buses being signed off for for service when they hadn't received exactly the right maintenance?

    This news story would seem to have some of the details:
    https://www.route-one.net/news/crosville_in_trouble_over_vehicle_repairs/
     
  2. Miff

    Miff Part of the furniture Friend

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    Somerset Passenger Solutions. A 50/50 joint venture between First Group and JJP Holdings and a considerably larger operation than the former Crosville.
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2019
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  3. free2grice

    free2grice Part of the furniture Friend

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  4. The Dainton Banker

    The Dainton Banker Well-Known Member

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    But that seems to be an analysis of the results of running during the year, a useful enough tool, but not the same thing as a survey of actual and potential passengers which might point to different preferences and opportunities.
     
  5. Martin Perry

    Martin Perry Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator Friend

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    I doubt that the owner of a bus company would see the tourist traffic on a steam railway as potential custom for his buses under any plausible circumstances
     
  6. The Dainton Banker

    The Dainton Banker Well-Known Member

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    You seem to be playing the man and not the ball. The shareholders made their choice of Chairman to address their problems and it is up to them to decide whether or not he is doing a good job. I don't see that sniping at the person is at all helpful and and could well result in a complaint to the moderators. If you consider that others are more suitable to the task then I suggest you nominate them at the next AGM (assuming, of course, that you are a shareholder)
     
  7. Robin

    Robin Well-Known Member Friend

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    There are also catering and shop sales of £314k in the WSRA accounts rather than the PLC.

    https://www.west-somerset-railway.c...et-railway-increase-passenger-numbers-in-2017
    "In 2016, the passenger numbers were at 186,603, and have risen to 189,359 making 2017 a great year for the West Somerset Railway."
     
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  8. Beckford

    Beckford Guest


    "You seem to be playing the man and not the ball."

    I think he missed both!
     
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  9. The Dainton Banker

    The Dainton Banker Well-Known Member

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    He often does :rolleyes::rolleyes:
     
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  10. free2grice

    free2grice Part of the furniture Friend

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    If we use the North Yorkshire Moors as a comparison, Whitby and Grosmont aren't exactly the easiest of places to reach by road. The A64 from York is regularly congested and if travelling by rail the route from the south can be a bit of a trek. As for being an 'unfashionable part of the UK for holidays' Whitby is a nice place to visit but as with Minehead it can't be compared to the English Riviera. As for the weather it's not exactly renowned for it's temperate climate. Given all this the NYMR is having a very successful time at the moment ….and long may it continue. <BJ>
     
  11. rodders154

    rodders154 Member

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    I would suggest that without JJP this railway would now be rusting with the vultures circling. I may not agree with everything I hear on about what is going on the railway and I am not sure that it will be here in the in the not to distant future but you cannot say that it wasn't for JJP pulling in favours from his business contacts the railway would not have folded. I don't like the idea of the whole lot being mortgaged anymore than anyone else but if you need the cash flow and nobody will lend you money because they read the papers and watch the TV along with you and I what else is there to do to raise cash. The Hinkley point fund Andy Norman goes on about where does the money go? I don't see it going to the railway in any tangible way. It has employed a community liaison officer and I believe from sources of the station staff at BL the latest idea is to have a weekly Mother and toddler group staffed by volunteers ???? As a trustee at the time and also a PLC director at the time we were sold the idea that this would improve our finances but from what I can see it hasn't. The WSRA in my opinion need to get their act together and stop chasing the 4160 shares which when I was dismissed costs were in the region of £16K and must by now be a great deal more. and if they do lose the cost that could be claimed by the other side could run into 6 figures. I understand that there is an arguable case that the shares were never transferred officially to the association in the first place (so a trustee of the association who is unhappy about the whole situation tells me). This is an awful lot of money to gamble don't you think. This is money that could buy an awful lot of rail. The shop needs to come into the PLC and on to their balance sheet. The WSRA insist that they must get a proper commercial payment for the shop and that is why they wouldn't let it go I understand that but what they don't realise is that is if they don't and the PLC goes bust then the WSRA will not have anything to support and they will have to disband with the Items they own having to go to other charities with similar aims. To sum up The WSRA and the people who hearts lie with the WSR need to get behind JJP as he is the only game in town.

    Rodders
     
  12. mvpeters

    mvpeters Member

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    Thanks for those numbers, though I saw 200,000 mentioned somewhere. They push the average closer to 14GBP per head - still low.

    The WSRA sales are significant, but I think many folks forget that the Association, as a Charity, cannot simply 'give' money to the PLC. It can only work within the framework of the Charitable Objects as set out in the Articles - see below.
    In my opinion, this is a major benefit as it has access to grants & other funding sources that the PLC, as a Corporation, does not.

    Objects
    The objects of the Association are to promote education in the heritage of the railway from
    Taunton to Minehead by restoring, preserving and displaying railway locomotives, carriages,
    wagons and other artefacts (including documents, drawings, photographs, recordings and
    films) of historical interest and the buildings connected therewith.
     
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  13. ghost

    ghost Part of the furniture

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    Surely those objectives would still allow the WSRA to make a healthy donation to the track fund? (they would be supporting the retoration/preserving of the Taunton-Minehead line). Other railway charities seem to manage it - I think the example of the GWSR has previously been explained on here.

    Keith
     
  14. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    If you look at many railways, you’ll see the nominal fare income per passenger is rather lower than the full cost fare - assuming the passenger numbers are broadly correct, the obvious inference being considerable travel at a discount.

    Many reasons why that might be, but a common one might be on a line which has considerable coach party traffic, where the per passenger fare actually charged is likely to be considerably discounted. Nothing wrong in that - just part of normal business planning. I’m sure KPIs like income per passenger are keenly followed at a boardroom level!

    Tom
     
  15. Maunsell907

    Maunsell907 Member

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    The majority of coach parties only travel in one direction ie the coach deposits its passengers at
    Bishops Lydeard and collects them at Minehead. AFAIK ( I do not know the position for this
    year) coach party business is not only a good use of resource but over the years numbers have
    increased.

    In addition to this there are many reasons why average pax returns are significantly less than
    the cost of a monthly Bishops Lydeard Minehead return ( a day rover is the same price ) e.g.
    half fare for children ( under threes free ), family tickets, weekly tickets, annual passes,
    holders of TA24 cards, various discounts ( such as given out at West of England ) , holders
    of Shareholders or long service passes ( I for instance hold both ) etc etc

    I do not know the figures for post January 2017, typically over the previous decade the
    revenue per passenger was c. 60% of the BL-MD return figure.

    However there have been changes e.g. In the past a pass holder generated a pax reading
    for each journey, this anomaly was corrected some five years past ie a ticket is issued
    to them for a days journeying. There have been changes in discounts e.g. Children free
    under three not five, TA24 discount 25% not 50%, HRA £10 for a Rover, not free,
    introduction of weekly and annual tickets etc etc.

    The challenge must be to optimise the product mix; that and a timetable reflecting
    current mores and financial restraints are key. I do hope we will hear some
    developments at the upcoming PLC AGM.

    Michael Rowe
     
  16. Andy Norman

    Andy Norman Member

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    Rodney

    I’m sorry another long post but it’s important to reply to your comments with more than just a couple of one liners and the WSR is worth the many words in order to find a way forward to secure its future, which is all we all really want.

    You will be aware as a WSRA Trustee and a PLC Director at that time of exactly where the HPC money goes and why as all were given a number of presentations, documents and opportunities to talk it through and at no stage were you ever told it would be used directly to improve PLC finances, although to be fair to you it does indirectly through such things as School Kids train fares being paid for by the fund not the schools , this puts bums on seats on already running service trains which would not otherwise be there, plus other activities such as helping to organise and run the 1940’s Weekend which generates a large income.

    However in your defence the lack of understanding about Grant Funding is common in certain parts of Somerset so you are not alone in not seeing the bigger picture, so I will expand on the strategy it took. The HPC Community Engagement Project is a HPC/WSRA Community Engagement Project not a ‘Just give money to the PLC Project’. You don’t just get given £97k, there are a full set of Community Based Activities in the Agreement (20 different areas), a full set of detailed KPI’s, timescales, reviews and objectives plus a fully HPC funded employed WSR Community Engagement Manager for a 2 years period who works for the benefit of the WSR and the project (I always said this valuable person needs to be smartly used). Its purpose is to benefit the Community firstly and help the WSR secondly not just to benefit the WSR to prop up their weak finances, that’s not how Grant Funding works.

    The longer term strategy for taking this route was due to WSR having no track record in running Grant Funding projects so the likes of HPC, SPC, Spark, Scope, HLF etc, etc. as fund awarding bodies need to be confident that the WSR is capable of running a project and seeing it to completion. The lack of track record is both a blessing and a curse, on the one hand it means the WSR is very investable as it has bags of opportunity and resource to benefit the Community and it has not been invested to death by others, but on the other hand there is no proof it can complete a project with other people’s money for the reason given.

    This Project being successful is one of the keys to unlocking larger funds for things like infrastructure projects, rebuilding bridges, the Southern Gateway Project etc. etc. along with a need to change the structure to one Charity to avoid the confusion and cross competing parallel funded projects. This has already happened with both the WSSRT & WSRA running conflicting funded Community Engagement Projects, Funders need and demand a clear objective to a clear outcome. It’s all about the Funder being confidence the Project will complete, without hassle and to value for their money. In basic terms, whilst the WSR has two competing Charities large Funders will not invest, they have all told us that and it’s a non-negotiable. Yet the two Charities concerned refuse to change, it only needs one to sit inside the other and both could on the ground continue as they do today, but neither will agree to change even on paper.

    The HPC Project was a way to open the funding door, HPC have a further 9 more yearly funding rounds of £1.5million per year to spend, SCF the host Funding Organisation for HPC represent 85 other funds, the Coastal Community Fund have just awarded £5 Million to Watchet Harbour right next to the WSR line and the Opportunity Area Fund has (had) £6 Million to invest in increasing Social Mobility in the West Somerset area, I could go on with other funds but the point is the money is out there as other Railways have proved (£10 Million NYMR for Infrastructure work last year, etc.).

    This mis-understanding of grant funding use was the true reason I left/was thrown out, as just after the agreement with HPC was signed the current PLC Board stated that no activity would take place unless they agreed in advance which is not what was agreed with HPC. On the first occasion a Community visit was refused which both broke the agreement and meant the KPI’s could not be achieved (reviewed with HPC on a regular basis through the project). This was my ‘red line’ so I stated my case as I don’t like breaching contracts or more importantly the trust I had built up with the Funders, it is a road to nowhere. If this project fails, in my opinion it will cut off all future large scale funding as it will prove it can’t be trusted with other peoples money.

    Regarding money lending you seem to be saying that potential lenders do their credit checking by reading newspapers and blogs, so it must be the fault of the likes of NP that they won’t lend money (although they actually have lent as Companies House has recorded recently). Money lending institutions are far more switched on than that. Any lender would know the exact financial position of the WSR PLC today, whether Accounts were published or not and most likely especially if that’s the case. Even HPC had as a condition of the Award to have as Due Diligence a very clear picture of the current finances at the end of 2018 of both the PLC & WSRA in a lot more detail than the normal accounts will ever show. Saying we can’t publish Accounts because lenders wouldn’t lend is a smoke screen as is ‘we will have to fold the business’ if we published because it’s not a going concern. Any company Director of any business has the responsibility to call in the Receiver at any time if the Business is not a going concern, it’s a legal requirement.

    The facts are today the PLC Credit Score by the Credit Referencing Agency I use is a solid ‘Green Good’. The WSRA’s Score is also very, very high (nearly unheard of high), which in some ways seems strange.

    As for the WSRA, I agree with you, the WSRA have failed in their remit in my opinion, in others posts above they have been called impotent and ineffective, I agree with those comments also the comment that it’s not completed any of the Coombes Review actions which all on the WSR sign up to some 5 years ago now. However I will defend them on the 4160 Shares. It’s a head and heart decision, a wrong was done and needs to be righted ‘versus’ it’s too much trouble to chase the shares. However the Trustees put it to a Members vote at an AGM and the Members voted to chase the shares which they say they are doing. The shop going to the PLC has been explained many times as you will know, it’s tied up in Charity law, a Charity can’t just give an asset away.

    As for getting behind the current PLC Board as they are the only game in town, again I’m going to dis-agree with you, there is always more than one game in town.

    In my opinion the WSR can’t survive on just the fare box, its proving that itself. Grant Funding has to support large ticket repairs and development so the fare box can cover the running of the trains daily. I’ve said previously that the experts in this field have said that the WSR should be aiming for circa £1 Million per year. I think the current annual shortfall is circa £500,000, so unless anybody has any other funding options would it not be fair to say Grant Funding is the best way to go?

    Alternatively we could all continue to 'get behind' the current PLC Board as you suggest and borrow ever larger sums of money, cut costs until there are no staff left (latest round underway I hear) which will restrict any £3.5 million turn over business and see the continuing downward passenger number/income trend until the money runs out.
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2019
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  17. martin1656

    martin1656 Nat Pres stalwart Friend

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    It seems to me that the same problems persist with the WSR, And its not just a case of changing those in charge, clearly a set of past decisions has now created a set of problems, many having developed over many years , its not been helped by having an supporters group that on the face of it was non supporting, for what ever reason, I am of course referring to the 6+1 , does the fact that the railway does not own the freehold on the land it runs on have an impact on the thinking of past boards of the WSR? There is no commercial case for having any refreshment rooms at Minehead, when you have multiple eateries just yards away, but at BL, where there is no local opposition, to take trade, it makes sence to improve on whats available, and develop it into something that appeals beyond the railway, and creates an income, As regards the state of the PW, It should not been allowed to have got to this state, but the customer isn't an endless resource, so the wider WSR has to come together and put right whats gone wrong, whilst protecting its self from possible groups who may see the railway differently, as an extension to their current business maybe, im referring to the first group partnership with Crossville, as buying into an means of getting from The outskirts of Taunton to Minehead , via a dedicated bus/ Railway DMU, where these no traffic problems, might be attractive to them, especially if the jouney is seamless with a change of Train to bus at BL
     
  18. Ron Sidewater

    Ron Sidewater New Member

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    Not quite true. There was a bus company called Blue Motors that specialised in trips round Exmoor, The WSR used to run a service called The Exmoor Explorer, which was a train from BL to Dunster (I think but might have been to MD), and met by a narrow Blue Motors vintage coach, suitable for the narrow lanes of Exmoor. There was trip round the moor, lunch at a country pub, and the bus back to MD for the return train to BL. . Not a great earner, but generally completely booked. The owner of Blue Motors retired and the service was discontinued.
     
  19. 6960 Raveningham Hall

    6960 Raveningham Hall Member Friend

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    I'm interested to know what evidence you have for that statement. I am a regular patron of the Turntable Cafe and can be seen there regularly, including days when there are no public trains.

    The cafe is always busy and it appears that many of those using it are local folk who are not even using the railway.
     
  20. huochemi

    huochemi Part of the furniture

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    "Any company Director of any business has the responsibility to call in the Receiver at any time if the Business is not a going concern, it’s a legal requirement."

    I don't think that is correct. A receiver is appointed by a creditor holding security (i.e. the receiver "receives" on behalf of that creditor), although a company could suggest to its secured creditor that now may be the time. There is some high level guidance at https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...insolvent/options-when-a-company-is-insolvent
     

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