Tyseley Single Wheeler.

Do you mean something to replace the train pipe to ensure that the brakes are applied automatically if the train is divided?

 

Sorry Ross, can't agree with that .... there were simply too many reasons why continuous braking was made mandatory (even for light railways) and anyway, the authenticity argument surely only holds any water for stock not thus fitted during it's service life .... and never used in service trains.

Surviving IWR and C&N, along with original FfR ad TR (plus possibly older IMR*) stock all predates the 1889 Act and was all subsequently "fitted" (during original service lives) .... even if, in the case of the Talyllyn, the line's exemption lasted rather longer than most. Even my local 5" gauge miniature line (Hove Park) runs with continuous brakes!

*The Isle of Man falls outside the scope of the 1889 Act, though BoT officers were called on to perform their services in their capacity as acknowledged experts.

 

The communication device on older stock is the passenger communication cord, which if operated by a passenger gives a partial vacuum application or in the case of air brakes a full application of the brakes. On newer stock it is a pull handle which then applies the brake. All passenger carrying vehicles have passenger communication devices, it is a mandatory requirement.

 

OK, fair comment, but don't you also need a system for the brakes to come on if the train is divided? Or are you allowed a train of unbraked vehicles topped and tailed by locos with brakes?

 

Yes that is a requirement but totally separate to the passenger communication device. With Vacuum and Air brakes the brakes will apply in both sections automatically if the train pipe is parted. On modern stock it is usually the loss of electrical continuity in the brake negative supply that applies the brakes.

 

At the risk of epic thread drift … I was curious about this, and also @paulhitch comment that there were useable carriages (plural) from the 1860s.

The Vintage Carriage Trust list 55 carriages built in 1869 or older. That includes a few in Ireland; and the Ffestiniog and Talyllyn carriages (excluded by gauge). Of the remainder, most are bodies only, generally un-restored; however, the following survive in substantially complete condition:

Operational

• Isle of Wight Railway No. 10 built 1864 - Operational, reproduction underframe with airbrakes discreetly fitted.
  
  
• NLR 46 Four-wheel 4 Compt First (body only) built 1864 - on SR van underfame

Potentially operational

• Stockton Darlington 179 Third built 1850 - At Beamish; slightly unclear whether it is operational or still under restoration (Vintages Carriages site hasn't been updated for several years).
  
  
• IoWR 21 four-wheel 3 compartment First (body only) built 1864 - proposed reproduction underframe with air brakes as above IWR No. 10
  
  
• NER 1173 Four-wheel Open First, later Officer's Saloon built 1869 - Given the later history, I suspect this has had underframe modifications including fitting of brakes

Museum display only
Essentially impossible to imagine any of these being used operationally

• Bodmin Wadebridge Four-wheel Third built 1834
• Bodmin Wadebridge Four-wheel Second built 1834
  
  
• Bodmin Wadebridge Four-wheel Composite built 1834
  
  
• London Birmingham 2 Queen Adelaide's Saloon built 1842
  
  
• Stockton Darlington 31 First & Second Composite built 1846
  
  
• Stockton Darlington 59 First & Second Composite built 1847
  
  
• Eastern Counties 64 Four-wheel 3 compartment First built 1852 - replacement underframe but of similar vintage; air brakes added at some point in the past (possibly by the LNER)
  
  
• NBR 1 Port Carlisle Branch Dandy Car built 1856 - Horse drawn vehicle
  
  
• LNWR 802 Queen Victoria's Saloon built 1869 - Hybrid vehicle; two bodies mounted on more modern (late Victorian) underframe, so not really representative of an early carriage.

Quite a way to go to assemble a genuine train representative of the 1850s/1860s; even more so for the LNWR!

Interesting, incidentally, that just as with locomotives, the very early period is somewhat well represented, but the real black hole in preservation is roughly 1850 - 1870, particularly ordinary vehicles (i.e. the NBR No. 1 Dandy Car and LNWR 802 being distinctly not typical of ordinary travel in the period).

(Edited - see below)

Tom

 

6336 aka NLR 46 (built 1864) at Havenstreet operational since 1986 to add to your list Tom

 

True .... even if some TV 'period drama' features lines and their stock over several episodes .... Think 'Poirot' (even my friend, uninfected by railwayitis, recognised HK in an episode, t'other day).

What shouldn't be underestimated IMO is the value of TV (and increasingly, internet) exposure, which is as true today as back in the mid-1950s, when that first BBC feature on the Talyllyn sent passenger numbers through the roof. Witness too the media savvy approach of today's NYMR.

Bums on seats, peeps ...... bums on seats.

 

Thanks Gary - I'd missed it because I'd excluded those listed as "body only", in part because I was also thinking about @ross earlier comment about retrofitting brakes onto very old vehicles, that not being a concern if the underframe is not original. Original post edited.

Tom

 

I.W.R. No. 21 ( 3 compartment all 1st) needs to be added to the potentially operational category as it is currently being rebuilt. Same arrangement re chassis, braking and alarm signal as with No, 10.

Incidentally, the best recreated train scene in a T.V. drama seen by me was in a "poirot" episode set in Deauville which featured the Pacific Vapeur Club's ex-Etat type G with her rake of contemporary Etat carriages. Spot on.

 

Cheers Paul, I'd clocked that one, but didn't recognise the loco.

At the risk of thread drift, the FfR's* upcoming recreated '1863 Mountaineer' will certainly come into the 'what to do' category .... given none of the 'Englands' in original condition, ever carried any continuous or automatic arrangement. Answers probably best posted on the project's dedicated thread!

*yep .... I am aware it was always a single 'f' back then .... just tryin' to avoid confusion!

 

I believe it would be possible to run an early 19th century loco 'piped' but with no means of generating the vacuum or air pressure on board as long as the loco brakes were modified to match. That might be the minimum way to achieve legal requirement. The necessary pressure or vacuum equipment could then be hidden in a guards compartment or similar. I believe this approach is used by some miniature railways were there is simply no room on the loco for all the equipment.

 

Fair point

 

Generating the vacuum on a loco does not require much space as very simple ejector suitable for a short heritage type train (I can't see the Bloomer doing a ten coach train!) could almost fit in your hand and can easily be hidden along with the other 'gubbins' to make it operable. Air brakes are more difficult although with ingenuity the biggest lump the air pump can be hidden in the tender (like Clan Line?) although it may be possible to make a smaller pump if only a limited train length is likely?

 

So that it could go to Rocket 150 and associated events over B.R. metals Lion and the L&M 1929 replica carriages were fitted with a simple air brake system whilst it was at Steamport. Liverpool Museum insisted that the equipment was fitted in such a way that it did not damage the historic fabric of the loco or carriages. Lorry type brake actuators (which fail 'safe' in the event of air loss) were fitted to the carriages and a small petrol driven compressor with reservoir was placed on the back of the tender. A driver's brake valve was fitted on the front of the tender. It was found that the reservoir only needed re-charging at the start of each running session and held enough charge for about 8 full brake applications. The B.R. inspectors were fully satisfied with the system and the train travelled many miles over the network that year. Perhaps something similar could be adopted for the Bloomer and its vintage carriages?
Ray.

 

I seem to remember reading that one if the welsh NG railways use dive cylinders for operating the braking systems?

Chris

 

I thought a good effort at authenticity was made in the 1978 film "The First Great Train Robbery". Filming was in Ireland, with one of the preserved ex-GS&WR 101-class given cosmetic alterations (eg removal of cab roof) to make it look more like an 1850s loco. Now I know that the London-Dover mail train in the 1850s would not really have been hauled by a goods engine on single-line, but I thought the only real giveaway (and then only to enthusiasts) was the vacuum pipes between vehicles.

Nowadays, I assume that computer-generated imagery could create a suitable train with the appropriate Cudworth Mail Engine at its head - and with Mr Jamessquared at the controls.

 

Fascinating how the Bodmin & Wadebridge & Stockton & Darlington are so well represented..................

Neither were exactly large companies

 

For vehicles of that age - and the same goes for locos - there are so few in existence that essentially what survives is through serendipity, rather than in any way being representative in proportions of what originally existed.

So you have to look at the individual stories. In the case of the B&W vehicles, the line was primarily a mineral line, and was isolated from the rest of the network, so never had the opportunity for vehicles to be replaced by those “cascading down” from the centre. By time it joined to the LSWR late in the 19th century, those carriages could be recognised for being of historic importance, and went straight to preservation - for a long time, displayed at Waterloo station.

The S&D was a reasonably large concern, being one of the constituents of the NER. I suspect those carriages survived, probably as miners’ trains, sufficiently late for the NER to take an interest, that company having a well-developed attitude towards preserving and celebrating its own history.

There are another couple of dozen or so standard gauge vehicles known about that are essentially grounded bodies, either still “in the wild” as it were, or awaiting restoration at a preserved railway. But they are far rarer than vehicles from the 1870s onwards, and rather harder both to restore and use.

Tom