The Cumbrian Fellsman 7th Feb

David's site was updated on the 30th December with the news that this is no longer Man Vic - via Hellifield to Carlisle, and thence via Shap to Carnforth, but steam Hellifield to Carlisle and return via the S & C only #-o #-o

I was on the point of booking this as it looked a splendid day out - but with this damage to its prospects - No Way!!!

Can we please have a clear explanation of who has caused this situation and why?

Happy New Year everyone!

 

May well be engineering work re the return,as been informed today,another tour that day due to head south over Shap is now returning via S & C.
As to why Hellifield rather than Man Vic-no idea.

 

If it is engineering works then why was the original route agreed in the first place. If it is late engineering works then why hasn't the tour been postponed until it could run as originally advertised.

 

2 tours on S & C.....brilliant

 

I'd have thought that the downside, to me at any rate, would be the loss of Manchester - Hellifield. I don't think anyone would have complained about Manchester - Hellifield - Carlisle - Hellifield.
I suspect that difficulty in pathing the return over Shap is the fly in the ointment and the extra time taken to return S&C has meant the curtailment to Hellifield to get the train run in a reasonable, not too lengthy day.

 

how times change

a scot out and back on the S&C in the same day would a few years ago have caused a veritable stampede for tickets

 

While I'm sure the train will be fully booked, I think that Frank's original point was that the change from what was originally advertised and what some will have already booked for was not a minor alteration.

 

Are 75MPH paths over Shap that hard to come by now ?, i know there is more traffic about these days but you can always go inside at Penrith, Grayrigg & Oxenholme.

 

WCML is closed that day, and the S&C is the diversionary route, if the steam was to originate from Manchester, a 5.00 am departure would be required.............(and i'm only the messenger, before you load your 12 bores!)

 

Perhaps Dalesman frequency of trips and prices are the reason so many are awaiting cheques from Kingfisher-unfortunately,as I would love a month of Dalesmans with 70013 and 46115 at last summers prices

 

Thank you Ian

and I am quite sure that Andy did not dream up the proposed itinerary without liaising with NR and WCRC before advertising either. No blame should be directed his way at all!

Once again a path has been planned, sold, and then withdrawn in a way which can only be described as cowboy conduct, and which would in any other forum end up in the magistrates courts.

The revised timetable is also - to say the least - a bit of a joke - five and a half hours to get home from Carlisle and only half of it behind steam! What are they doing??

 

Happy new year to you all. But if the railtour industry is going to survive the economic downturn its going to need to up its game and network rail be held responsible IF IT IS AGREEING THESE TOURS then altering the itinery so much. Its nothing new and this sort of behaviour goes back to the early 80s and SLOA/ BR days. Its not working Network rail!

 

Isn't the S&C better anyway,steeper longer climb and all the rest of it(Not as steep as Shap NB but just as bigger challenge!!! But who cares,i mean scot's go over there everyday anyway so it doesn't matter.... :-k

 

If I understand how the system of booking a tour works even half right, you will never avoid changes - even a return to the SLOA days of set routes and largely repeat itinteries would do no more than reduce the alterations.

My understanding is that a Tour Promoter will have an idea, select an operator and then work out whether, within the "rules of route", likely timing and obvious external factors, it will work. The operator will then bid for the paths but the detailed timing work is often done (by Network Rail) much closer to the date the tour runs. Network Rail have managed to make this not as close as not that long ago but the sheer amount of trains, ECS and Light Engine moves, plus all the changing requirements of TOCs and FOCs for network access, all mean there is a massive work load here.

Th Promoter obviously can't wait for agreed timings to promote the tour so "goes public" with what has been agreed as theoretically possible with the Operator. Likewise, Network Rail would like to avoid wasting time doing the detailed work on a train that gets cancelled due to lack of bookings or a loco to work the train (both of which have been regular occurances in 2008). Hence, this situation sounds a lot like stalemate!

Sadly, I can only agree it is no way to grow the charter business and that there have been trains I have looked at but been glad I didn't book on when the steam mileage gets slashed at the last minute - not that Yorkshire and the North East is well served by specials; even many that run through the region are from further afield and impossible to join here.

I can understand the reasons for what happens - and in the case of this train, if the WCML: is shut, I am amazed it is being allowed to run at all!

 

Hence - BC - why I am arguing for face to face contact between all parties in an attempt to remove the mystique and lack of trust in the current scenario.

The scenario as I understand it is :-

Promoter has idea -
Promoter tables it to TOC -
TOC resources in principle and tables it to NR -
NR approve proposal as to gauging and acceptability -
TOC advises Promoter or NR response -
Promoter arranges power etc contracts and goes to market
NR advise timings prior to event - sometimes \/
Loco and stock undergoes FTR
Tour runs - or not

The above deliberately makes no reference to costs.

NR need to understand that :-

They are a publicly owned company - even thought they pretend not to be.

That they have a responsibility to run rail traffic on open access terms - not just for the principal TOCs

That the survival of the railtour businesses in no small part depends on them giving their word and keeping it - both as to gauging and timing - The K1 last May - pulled at three days notice, 30850 twelve hrs last November -

Timings that actually mean a pleasant day out and not a multi day trip with hotel stays, or overnight drives as
the only way for the tour participants to undertake a simple day excursion.

I am certain that once inter party commitment between people who know and trust each other is established that the present regime can be improved - but while everyone is sitting on their corner being unhelpful to everyone else things will remain on the present downward slope.

 

Another issue over which I ponder is when things happen which prevent the running of a train as advertised and lets be realistic they do, who then decides whether the train should run to a different itinerary, be postponed or cancelled. In this day and age would it too much for tour operators to text or E-mail those intending passengers for whom they have mobile numbers / E-Mail addresses to ask what they would prefer to do. OK it would only be a straw poll but promoters could receive a 24hr response and it would give them a feel for the market and be a good customer relations exercise. Obviously this could not apply to last minute changes. What disappoints me about this train is that a decision has been taken to change the steam sections from an exceptional routing with 2 firsts for 46115, Manchester - Hellifield and Shap to a route which is undertaken many times a year by steam. Postponing it would have allowed the trip to run as advertised and whilst I accept some people may have found it difficult to travel on a revised date the choice then becomes theirs.