The last BR STANDARD GAUGE passenger locomotive?

What was the last passenger (i.e. 7P, 8P etc) steam locomotive to run in service for BR? All the "famous" ones from the end of steam seem to be mixed-traffic classes.

Edit: Title amended to get rid of narrow gauge frothers...I don't care.

 

Re: The last BR passenger locomotive?

At a guess I would say it was a Bulleid Pacific in July 1967.

 

Re: The last BR passenger locomotive?

It was a Lightweight Bulleid, which, under BR were 7P/ 5f. So they were mixed traffic locos technically.

 

Re: The last BR passenger locomotive?

That would have to be one of the Vale of Rhiedol engines then.
The Melter
( feeling pedantic)

 

Re: The last BR passenger locomotive?

No 7 then(on 2nd and 4th trains) on 4/11/88.No 8 worked the 1st and 3rd trains.

 

Re: The last BR passenger locomotive?

I believe that honour goes to 45562 Alberta, which worked an MRTS/SVRS railtour on 28th October 1967. It had been specially retained for this train and it was withdrawn the following week.

 

Re: The last BR passenger locomotive?

Wasn't it 70013 that was BR's last passenger locomotive and that was a class 7P.

 

Re: The last BR passenger locomotive?

The Brit's were offocially mixed traffic locos, classified 7MT. The only BR Standard passenger loco was 71000.
The Jubilees were officially passenger locos, classified 6P5F and were definitely the last class of express passenger locos in service. Not sure of the last scheduled passenger train as distinct from the MRTS special. That honour may have gone to 45593 as 45562 I believe worked a freight train to Carlisle on the last day of West Riding steam.

 

Re: The last BR passenger locomotive?

yes id agree there...6P5F is a mixed traffic rating...had they been 6F, they would have been rated 6MT

 

Re: The last BR passenger locomotive?

The rating on the cab side isn't necessarily any guide to a loco's intended use; there are examples of 8Fs and even WDs and Super Ds working passenger trains.

The Jubilees were rated by the LMS as 5XP (and known thereafter to enginemen as 5Xs), i.e. Express Passenger engines. Despite this, and from building, they found themselves working freights occassionally, as did the A4s over to the east. To give an idea for loading when working a freight, BR, when they changed the rating to 6P, added the 5F. But they were still essentially passenger engines; with 6'9" wheels they could hardly be anything else.

Bulleid was in a different position, because when his engines first appeared there was a blanket ban on express engines, so they had to be designated Mixed Traffic. Of course, they did work freights but judge for yourself: they were deffinitely Express engines.

 

Re: The last BR passenger locomotive?

Sorry to quibble with LMS 2968 but the '5X' rating the LMS gave to the Jubilees, Patriots and rebuilt Claughtons was intended to show that they were a sort of halfway house between the Class 5 passenger engines (which were then the original Claughtons and the L&Y 4-6-0s) and the Scots which the LMS then rated as Class 6. BR changed the numbers in 1951 from memory, ie 5X became 6, 6 became 7 and 7 became 8, this coincided with a 'general' (note the weasel inverted commas) adoption of the LMS system of loco power classification which was, in turn, based on the Midland system. At first the Southern Region did not adopt this approach and I'm pretty sure the Western didn't ever although GW engines allocated to other regions were treated as though they did have such a power classification. This meant that the Halls for example were thought of as Class 5 engines on other regions. (The GW had a system of letters and coloured spots and I'm sure that other members will know more about this than I do).

About the same time that BR re-numbered the power classification a decision was made that a good many types were really mixed traffic locos. One outcome of this that many types now had a mixed traffic classification ie the Jubilees 6P5F, but the full classification wasn't carried on the cabsides. Another outcome was a decision that 'fully' mixed traffic engines eg the 5P5F or 5MT Stanier Black 5 would only carry '5' on the cabside. This edict seems to have been ignored in Scotland.

Express passenger engines always took fast freight trains as well as a good many photos even from the pre-WW1 period show. There was a complex and very detailed system of just how many vans/wagons such fast freights each loco type could haul at up to 60mph with an average speed of 30-35mph

The situation with the Southern region was a little more complex. The LSWR had a system of loco power classification where each loco type was allocated a letter accordingly. This letter was applied to the platform valence usually in white just behind the buffer beam. The Southern Railway adopted this system in 1923. In the mid-1950s (1956-7?, not sure) BR(S) decided to use the prevailing BR system but also decided to paint the complete classification on the sides on the cab, so for example the WC & BB classes became 7P5FA. (The 'A' referrred to the braking ability of the engines, other locos might carry a 'B'). However .... on the S&DJ the operating people weren't too impressed with said WC & BB classes and so classified them 5P5F which made them the equivalent to the BR5!

If any member wants to know more on this topic volume one of Stephen Summerson's series on MR engines can help as can David Bradley's series on LSWR engines. Other sources are 'The Railway Magazine' and 'The National Archive'.

Regards

 

Re: The last BR passenger locomotive?

Yes, probably worded it wrong. The X didn't signify 'Express', which as I read back might be what I inferred, more Like 'Extra' perhaps: one up on a normal 5P, but not a fully fledged 6P.

The BR reclassification cleared this anomaly

 

Re: The last BR passenger locomotive?

Hallo... According to my now "Ageing Memory"!!!! LOLOL #-o
My Monies on a "Merchant Navy" Class 8P. No 35023 Holland Afrika Line
She hauled the last down steam express off Waterloo to Weymouth on July 9th 1967..

Cheers
IAN

 

Re: The last BR passenger locomotive?

The spots were about weight, not power BTW.
On power, my 1958 Observers book lists BR as well as GW Power classes for the GW lococmotives and there does not appear to be an exact correlation between the two systems.
The GWR never seems to have had a P/F distinction. AIUI they turned out an extra batch of Castles rather than build more of the 5'8 4700 280s in the 30s because the Castles were more versatile than the 280, which was considered unstable at the front end above 60mph. Thus there's an excellent case for calling the Castle mixed traffic! The only class that seems to have not regularly taken on freight traffic was the King, and all the Churchward and later designs - at least the tender engines - seem to have been considered good for passengers if needed.

 

Re: The last BR passenger locomotive?

That doesn't sound correct to me. 5XP was class five express passenger. The Scots were class 6P and pacifics class 7P. The BR classification expanded the ratings so that 5XP became class 6P, 6 became 7, and 7 became 8. The Jubilees were always known by enginemen as 5X's, even in the latter days.

 

Re: The last BR passenger locomotive?

That's not correct. 35023 worked the Channel Island boat train both ways on July 8th 1967. After the up working it returned to Nine Elms and didn't work again.

On the Sunday, 35030 worked the last up boat train to Waterloo from Weymouth. Therefore it was the last 8P to work an ordinary BR passenger train in service. Earlier the same day 34021 worked a passenger train up to Waterloo from Southampton Docks. I think I'm correct in saying that those were the only express passenger steam workings on that last day.

Apart from 34017, which had sat in a corner of the same scrapyard for over 18 months, 35030 was also the last Bullied Pacific to be cut up.

 

Re: The last BR passenger locomotive?

Yes, I thought that's what I said! I'll grant there were no Class 5XFs, but perhaps no engines qualified!

There where some engines that were just 5P - no X; I think the Lanky Dreadnoughts and small boilered Claughtons fell into this category, and they were certainly express types. When fitted with the larger boilers, the Claughtons were considered better than their smaller sisters, but not as good as the Scots at 6P, so the 5X was invented to fill the gap.

We've come a long way from the original question, and the mention of the 5Xs was simply too show that a ?P?F figure on the cab side did not necessarily make the engine a mixed traffic type.

 

Re: The last BR passenger locomotive?

Sorry, but a 6P5F rating does not make a loco a mixed traffic one. A4's were rated at 8P6F. Now tell me and everybody else that an A4 was a mixed traffic loco.
Like I said, the last 'passenger' loco to haul a 'passenger' train was 45562 on 28/10/67. That was a over three months after the last Merchant Navy. If you want to disagree on whether a Jubilee was primarily a passenger loco then I suggest that you do some research first.

Jim,
Rather than me, can you go to your trusty Observers book, (1958 edition) and tell us what it says on page 126 about the intended purpose of a Jubilee? And just to confirm things, can you say what the intended purpose of a Britannia was?