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S&D Railway Trust

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by Andy Norman, Feb 24, 2020.

  1. Steve Edge

    Steve Edge Member

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    The other way round. The call for help came before the kick. Think about the time before "the letter" and ask why the S&DRT could not have answered the call to help.

    Of course, if we (Nat Pres commentators) are now saying the S&DRT is not part of the WSR family then we cannot expect them to have special treatment. If they are, as suggested in an earlier post, mere tenants then we (Nat Pres commentators) must accept it is no more than a formal business arrangement with none of the emotion.

    Steve
     
  2. Paulthehitch

    Paulthehitch Well-Known Member

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    Actually, I think the first edition was the vital one to "establish the brand." Worth taking some time over, particularly as the epidemic will be here for a while.
     
  3. Maunsell907

    Maunsell907 Member

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    Is the corollary to the above that the S&DRT should pay a commercial rent ?

    I assume that based on Local norms for the station buildings the monthly rent would be c.£800-900.

    The land on the opposite side of the running line is I suspect more difficult wrt to establishing
    a fair rent. Is the value simply the land plus connection to the WSR running line or is it the
    value of the developed land ( I leave it to those far more knowledgeable than I )

    ( Whether a charity or not is irrelevant)

    If the S&D were to run the. Station ( ie not just the shop and museum, the platform AFAIK is
    not part of the lease ) then they should receive financial recompense. Or the Plc man the
    platform ?

    I believe a renegotiated lease encompassing a fair rent ought to be a way out of
    the mire.

    Micheal Rowe
     
  4. MellishR

    MellishR Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    That could make sense in principle, but how do you determine what is "fair"? Factors of possible relevance include the cost to the PLC of maintaining the station if the Trust were not doing it (as Tom has pointed out), whether any other organisation or individual would have a use for the site, and if so how much they might be willing to pay.
     
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  5. Robin Moira White

    Robin Moira White Resident of Nat Pres

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    Whatever.
     
  6. RailWest

    RailWest Part of the furniture

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    To be fair, there is a difference other than purely visual.

    At WD the S&DRT effectively 'control' the whole site - ie both sides of the running line - and manage it accordingly.

    At DR the station staff IMHO do a splendid job, within their capabilities, of managing the platform, station building and its environs - ie the Down side of the line. AFAIK they have little if any control over what happens in the yard, ie on the Up side of the line. From my discussions with staff there on various occasions, I am sure they are as frustrated and embarrassed about the 'disgraceful scrapyard as the rest of us.
     
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  7. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

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    It could have been, though it’s worth remembering that “market price” is what someone’s actually willing to pay - and would the plc be willing to endure the compromises inherent in hosting a business paying that?

    But instead we have had a move more or less straight to eviction, on questionable grounds. That’s not so much a negotiating tactic as a form of blackmail, hence the concern of many that - even without Covid 19 - it is appalling financial sense in its own terms, let alone
    ethically. It seems that the idea of “win win” is absent, and everything is viewed through a lens of winner takes all.

    And, to the point from @Steve Edge about family, I’d have said that the S&DRT are neither commercial tenants nor a part of the core nuclear family, but cousins. They are part of the wider whole, but with their own distinct interests. As such they deserve respect and consideration, not cutting off.

    That is why the plc should back down, rescind the notice, and have an open and honest conversation with the trust about how they can work together to mutual advantage.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
     
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  8. aldfort

    aldfort Well-Known Member

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    Just to correct a factual error Andy, the WSRA brought in £119,000 of new money last year based on an idea you originally suggested to us. There is also no evidence to suggest that "Just Giving" appeals only attract contributions from volunteers, but if you have data that suggests otherwise I'd very much welcome seeing it?
    You are quite right that membership income is falling as the membership base gets smaller. Something I'm still hoping to reverse.
    Of course delivering on the Coombes report at long last will also dent Association income but the membership voted for the Association to do that and to turn itself into a fundraising charity for the railway.
     
  9. free2grice

    free2grice Part of the furniture Friend

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    As a hobby I've edited and produced my own heritage railway films since 1999. Over the years my films have evolved and now, if I may say so, are a joy to watch. What is surprising though is that when I sit down and watch my first railway films from over 20 years ago the films have a feel of nostalgia and are really good to watch .....others may disagree ;).

    I've just watched a film about the early preservation days of the Swanage Railway. The filming was a little amateurish but it was very interesting and so good to watch.

    Compiling a film and editing takes years to perfect and I'm the first to admit that I'm still learning to this day.

    Keep at it Robin. You'll get there in the end. <BJ>
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2020
  10. Monkey Magic

    Monkey Magic Part of the furniture

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    The statements from the S&DRT point to issues with the PLC board prior to the letter. The PLC delaying permissions etc. So it would appear that the PLC was already trying to kick out the S&DRT prior to the appeal and the 'not helping in our hour of need' is nothing more than a canard.

    And as has been pointed out time and time again, they have helped as they can within the remit of their rules as a charity.

    As for emotional argument, I assume then you condemn the use of inflammatory and emotional language by the PLC and the Chairman.
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2020
  11. Robin Moira White

    Robin Moira White Resident of Nat Pres

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    Thank you.

    As I have said, constructive criticism gratefully received.

    I would also be pleased to have offers of content. Generally a video that 'tells a story' in some way. If anyone has an idea, do PM me.

    Robin
     
  12. Steve Edge

    Steve Edge Member

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    My recent comments here have been focussed on the time "before the letter" and why the S&DRT could not help the Plc's call for financial help. The charitable rules do not totally prevent the S&DRT from responding positively to that call. An agreed increase in rent would be quite in order, for example.

    Not sure what you mean by "Plc delaying permssions" - I have looked in vain for such details in the two S&DRT press releases - so not quite sure how you have made the jump to "Plc was already trying to kick out the S&DRT". Grateful for clarification, please.

    For now, I'd like to focus here on the period before the "letter" to help establish why the S&DRT seemingly could not help the Plc which might shed some light on subsequent events.

    Steve
     
  13. johnofwessex

    johnofwessex Resident of Nat Pres

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    Presumably though firstly the S&DRT may well not wish to indulge in the sort of behaviour seen by the PLC and keep details of its relationship with the PLC out of the public domain, in addition there may be an element of 'informally the PLC have said no so we wont push it'

    Secondly why exactly does the PLC expect money from the S&DRT? It had the money from the Beer Festival & towards a new tank top for 53808's tender, neither of which the Trust was obliged to pay for but did, in addition the PLC had stated that it may not be able to fund 53808's next overhaul so presumably The Trust may have needed to ensure it had funds to pay for that?
     
  14. johnofwessex

    johnofwessex Resident of Nat Pres

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  15. nine elms fan

    nine elms fan Part of the furniture

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    I would not put anything past the chairman in his desperation for cash, if I ever met him I would count my fingers afterwards. :rolleyes:
     
  16. Andy Norman

    Andy Norman Member

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    Mike

    I take your point and perhaps I should expand on what I meant by 'new money' to avoid confusion. The WSRA in raising that £119k did only one thing. It got its general manager to put out a just giving appeal and only focus its marketing and fund raising drive on existing members within the WSR. It didn't go to a wider audience and market itself to new people or do anything other than a quick and easy low hanging fruit appeal, hence my term 'new money'. I don't doubt that some new people who don't know who the WSR is searched through Just Giving and found the WSRA appeal, did their own homework and donated, but that would be by chance not design. You know my thoughts well on the need to gain 'new money' into the WSR we spoke about it often when I was working with you on fund raising, its hard work and takes effort but £1 million pa is doable as the various potential funding partners told us both.

    The WSRA can't continue to just only look to its own members (old money) to make up the shortfall the WSR faces ongoing as the numbers don't stack up. If you take say 3,500 WSRA members left (which I believe is about right but please correct me), divide it by the £1 million shortfall pa stated by the PLC, each member will have to donate £285 each, each year ongoing and that will increase if the membership decreases. That's not to decry the valuable donations that people have put in as these donations likely saved the WSR in 2019, its just is it sustainable in 2020,21,22 ?

    Surely with a Board of 7 people, plus a full time paid general manager and a part time paid fund raiser (who I acknowledge does a great job in her own regard in addition to what I'm saying here) the WSRA can do better than just put out 1 just giving appeal? I think you were lucky last year that so many people answered that call and gave you £119k for not much effort, Do you think that will be more this year or less given the bad PR the WSR is giving itself ?

    Regarding your (and others on your Board) comments regarding the Coombes Review implementation, also comments about the WSRA turning around the membership decline and repeated statements regarding the WSRA taking over looking after the volunteers on the WSR. With respect the Coombes Review was 5 years ago and all these things have been promised consistently as 'just around the corner' for at least 3 years to my certain knowledge. The reasoning given to me 3 years ago was that you all had to put your efforts into stabilising the WSRA's finances before you acted. That is wearing a bit thin now, so perhaps time for the WSRA to do rather than say.

    I do of course have some sympathy about your ability to fund raise on a large scale, you know my views well so I understand you are restricted by a PLC who fear you having to much power over them. However I am disappointed when you say "A fundraising charity for the railway" you know what the grant funders have said to us both: Either you or somebody else must be "THE fundraising Charity for the railway", having competing charities and a continual war between 3 Boards with no clear structure, objectives, governance, direction or even policies for volunteers will mean they will not give grant funding, other partners will not engage and you will struggle to get 'new money' and 'new people' in the amounts needed to continue, yet 2 years later still no action and no further forward.

    The question remains, when are the WSRA going to do something to break the current em-pass which is killing the WSR? The stupid eviction of the S&DRT is likely only to bring that death forward quickly now. So are you going to continue to support the PLC's actions regarding the S&DRT, HR Policies and removing us 'trouble making' volunteers? or would it be better at this point to stand up to be counted (even at the risk of failing) and try to do the right thing, rather than stand by and say nothing or worse allow others on your Board to hint they are doing something and will save the day so no need to worry. Alternatively you could just allow the plan you explained in detail to me back in late 2018 to continue ?

    Lastly Mike, thanks for engaging with me factually here, its a refreshing change to debate what is what rather than just throwing stones. Its just a pity your good friend the PLC Chairman is not doing the same and justifying his actions to the people he is accountable to, rather than keeping his head down and not replying to emails/letters (other than when it suits him) and when on the rare occasion he does, digging himself a deeper hole as he has with the S&DRT recently !!!!
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2020
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  17. tracker

    tracker Member

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    Noted and applauded.
    I was basing my comment on the most recent published accounts:
    2018 Accounts
    The Board made grants of £740 to stations and other groups for small heritage projects
    Expenditure: Charitable activities £204,534
    2017 Accounts
    The Board made a grant of £300 to Blue Anchor station
    Expenditure: Charitable activities £219,688

    The "charitable activities" figure is not itemised as to how it is arrived at.
    Robin L.
     
  18. 1472

    1472 Well-Known Member

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    In answer to your question - no.
    I did though very carefully read the PLC statement and have read those from the S&DRT.
    I do not condone all the terms used in the PLC statement - but then who on here can claim that the way they express themselves is always perfect in retrospect?
    Any further reading into what I posted is purely by you.
     
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  19. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

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    I agree, we’re all capable of saying things we regret and in ways that we regret. However, when the behaviour is compounded by subsequent words and actions, it suggests either an utter disregard for how things are perceived, or a completely tin ear for the impact of words and actions. Neither is a good look.


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  20. flying scotsman123

    flying scotsman123 Resident of Nat Pres

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    And aside from the actual language used, and aside even more from the question of financial aid, there's the very fact that the WSR signed a new 50 year lease with the S&D Trust very recently, and is now breaking that, whilst also threatening to break the contract that 53808 is subject to. That is the main issue, all the rest is flim-flam. I expect the court will be far more interested in that 50 year lease than accusations of failing to pay enough in financial aid or being called "cuckoos in the nest" although the latter will likely have a bearing, along with any evidence of future use by the landlord, which still hasn't really been forthcoming.
     

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