West Somerset Railway General Discussion

I suppose especially given the current situation, a standard agreement and scale of charges would have an element of fairness about it

 

I happen to know from conversations I had with the management of the WSRA at the time, that it took a very long time to extract any rent out of a certain individual when his loco was being stored at Williton. Invoices were sent, and I believe they were eventually paid, but it was like extracting blood from a stone. Perhaps @aldfort would be good enough to confirm, in the public interest, how much Thornbury Castle was charged per month during its period of storage, and whether or not those invoices were eventually all paid.

 

It might. But after due negotiation and mutual agreement, not the use of notices to quit. I support the use of proper contracts, but recent events mean that I lack trust in the plc management’s willingness to abide by their side of them. And that is no basis for a sustainable relationship.


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You mean one of these?......Ouch!


I always feel it is a pity that this bit of the Bluebell's genuine LBSC practice was abandoned later in favour of a more modern token system, but I suppose there were good reasons for it.

Talking about staff mishaps, there was a well known occasion some years ago on the NYMR when a slightly built cleaner was handing over the staff and ticket pouch to the signalman as the train ran into at Levisham. With the cab doors open, he for some reason forgot to let go of the pouch and landed in a crumpled heap on the platform at the feet of a rather startled signalman.

Sorry for the thread drift, but at least it is about railway operations if not WSR ones.

Peter

 

Who do you suggest would decide what's 'fair' ?

 

Surely the whole point of having groups with a wide range of locos and rolling stock is, that it enhances the railway and allows a variety of different services and experiences to be offered on a regular, semi-regular or gala only schedule?

I was always under the impression that groups based at railways did not pay rent because they were contributing to the railway (educating visitors on the restoration process and possibly training apprentices), and that their particular vehicle would at some point in the future, come into service and give the railway something 'new'.

Do other railways charge groups rent? Electricity/gas/consumables I can understand, but rent? It's not as though it's actually costing the WSR to have the autocoach there.

It sounds like the WSR is to become a linear industrial estate, with rented out units or space at each station or anywhere that there's some room and railway preservation groups will not be able to afford the rent. As someone said recently on here, the plc seems to know the cost of everything and the value of nothing. Watch out @Robin Moira White you'll have a prefab shed spoiling your view soon...

Keith

 

Gosh!

That's exactly it, and exactly the spot.

I think the engine lurched at the wrong moment (the cleaner certainly did) and moved a foot to the right (from my perspective) and walloped my in the head. I fortunately had the presence of mind to stand still while the train passed and then sat down rather heavily to recover.

Robin

 

When WSRA were running Williton rent was not charged to any customer who was having work done on their locomotive, coach, traction engine or whatever. Much the same as when you take a car into the garage for a service they don't charge you a rent while they work on it. Thornbury Castle was subject to just such an agreement and regular payments were made for work done. The owner was no better or worse than any other customer about making prompt payment but at least this owner did cough up, something that's not always the case in the preservation movement.

 

And what about the extensive periods of time when it appeared to many, including myself, that work wasn't being done on Thornbury Castle? Was the owner being charged any rent for storage? There were a good few people on the railway who were asking that question at the time and still wonder. Would you like to tell us what work was actually done on Thornbury Castle during its tenure at Williton?

 

Sorry but this is wrong. It cost the WSRA money to accommodate the autocoach just the same as it would have cost the WSR plc.
What is the difference between asking for rent or asking for a contribution to the heat, light, messing facilities etc? Rent is just a simple way to help cover these costs.

The autocoach team used mess room facilities, they had the lights on, they used equipment, they used consumables. Perhaps these were gladly given when Williton was under the tenure of WSRA but they still cost money. There was also a lost opportunity cost. The WSRA could have used the space to work on something from a paying customer that would have brought money into the WSR. We didn't because we are a charity and could take a charitable view.

Maybe the key question was - would the autocoach have been used regularly on the WSR once it was finished? Maybe that informed the WSR plc decision?

 

Please do write to me at WSRA with your membership number and I'll happily answer your question.
As a member you have a right to an answer. However you would surely not expect your Association to disclose sensitive commercial information on a public forum? You'd quite rightly be very annoyed if we did.

 

You seem to be assuming that the group did NOT contribute to the utility costs of Williton - can you state that for certain? It seems like arm twisting to ask for utilities costs and then to ask for rent as well. Aren't all the groups supposed to be working for the greater good of the railway? 'One Railway'? Or does that go out of the window when a few quid come into the discussion?

If the railway has not learned from the experience of several railways, including the Mid-Hants and the GWSR over the past 10 (maybe more) years about the importance of having agreements in place (and knowing exactly who the agreement is with), before rolling stock comes to the railway, then the management really aren't doing their jobs properly.

Keith

 

Some information I was given about 5542’s Autocoach 169 recently by ‘an insider’.

1. 5542 bought the Autocoach as an opportunity and at the time asked the WSR (a number of years ago now) if the WSR could use it on the line if they restored it. The WSR said yes and welcomed it.
2. The WSRA were happy with the financial arrangement and that was a long standing agreement but if we are all one railway why not keep the asset on the WSR rather than just throw another opportunity away? The PLC could of course put 5542 into the new ‘cuckoo in the nest, not paying their way at a commercial rent level so we have evicted them’ category. And @ghost picks up on this above, which is spot on in my opinion.
3. When the 5542 Group eviction notice was served the autocoach was just pushed outside a number of months ago now (sheeted down). 5542 have spent thousands of hours of carpentry rebuilding the wooden frame to a lovely standard, but it’s currently just a wooden skeleton awaiting much of its metal skin, this means an irreplaceable heritage asset is outside in the wet rotting away.

The last point above is the great shame here, a priceless heritage asset is sat out rotting away in the wet of winter, just to apply pressure to a group to get them to pay more to prop up a failing PLC (again the general grant funding route would have avoided this), whilst the shed from what I’m told has space in the dry for it. We know contracts and agreements (verbal or written) mean nothing to the PLC and we know the WSR Shareholders remain silent so must be happy with actions being taken on their behalf, but where is this all going? It can only see another asset and another group of volunteers leaving. I was shot down in flames here about a possible 40% reduction of volunteers which somebody close to the action reported to me because some thought it far too high and couldn’t be true. I’m not sure how many people of the 5542 Group come to the WSR and held WSR ID Cards (because they needed to) but here must be a few of the percentage drop. Will the last person to leave please switch out the light !

Damn it I’ve posted again, sorry Michael, please, please forgive me.

 

Sorry Al if you feel my posting is not appropriate, I didn't think I'd gone into any commercial information here!

The discussion came about because another group is being asked to leave the WSR

Keith

 

At special events such as galas and the steam fair ? Do you think it wouldn't ?

 

As a (very modest) contributor to the 5542 fund, and a 'fan' of 169, I am very saddened by the situation. I wonder who remembers the 'TOGA' special when 5542 returned to steam on the line and we ran from BL to MD and back with a borrowed auto-coach? I have always found there to be much interest in 169 whenever the work of the group has been on display at the August Rally and the various Galas when the Swindon shed has been open - the 'steam bending' demonstrations seemed very popular.

Not long ago there was - supposedly - an assurance from the Plc that 5542, 4561 and similar 'small' engines would have a place on the railway once again -it will be 'interesting' therefore to see what happens when 4561 is back to steam again.

Long, long ago now there were several fellow volunteers with me at what is now the SDR who moved on to work on the restoration and re-opening of the WSR. Given the warm welcome always given to 5542 at Buckfastleigh, I'm beginning to think that now is the time - sadly - for the whole 5542 + 169 project to relocate there for good, along with other like-minded 'small groups' whose continued presence on the WSR is looking increasingly precarious. Rather than move house to West Somerset, perhaps I should go back to South Devon instead - there's always the potential Ashburton extension to plan

 

The current PLC chairman's business website even advertises the vision of developing Williton into a 'Railway engineering training centre of excellence' to allow for engineering apprenticeships.

It seems strange people are claiming on Nat Pres that he doesn't, or the railway doesn't, want apprentices, for the various reasons listed out. I would say based on his own website he does?

 

The trouble is that it is in the implementation of these "finer details" that many of the issues over the behaviour of the plc are coming out. So interpreting the reasonableness of what's happened at Washford, or regarding the autocoach, depends heavily on the understanding and interpretation of those details.

 

The East Somerset seems to be on an upward trajectory these days.

The point is that you can see exactly the same discourse being used by the PLC apologists and sycophants as we saw with the S&DRT.

- haven't contributed financially
- no one goes there/their object is of no use.

SSDD

Oddly enough, the 'is it of use to us' test did not seem to apply to those whose locomotives have axle loadings that are too heavy for the railway.

You have to ask the question - who is going to be kicked out next?