West Somerset Railway General Discussion

... or four if you have two single lines crossing, or five if two single lines meet and then diverge to three etc etc. So in principle you could have any arbitrary number, though the Webb and Thompson staffs seemed to suggest that more than four was unlikely in the UK, but six were in use in Ireland.

Tom

 

The colours are standard.
IRSE Green Book No 4 'Single Line Control - British Practice', page 6 shows the 4 configurations of token, the shape of the holes and their colours.
A - Round - Red;
B - Square - Blue;
C - Triangle (base to key) - Green;
D - Diamond - Yellow.
On the older keys the 'handle' was round (as the Hamworthy Jn to Hamworthy Goods keys); on the later alloy ones the 'handle' mimics the shape of the hole so feels distinct to the touch (eg, Marchwood to Fawley). (Both configuration 'B' as it happens.)
HTH
Pat
PS Edited to remove brain-fade error in respect of 'D'. Sorry.

 

Does anyone know what the largest number of token machines ever fitted in a box in the UK was? I assume that Horsted Keynes could have had three

 

Highley on the SVR has four different instruments due to long/short section working, although using GWR-pattern tokens where all tokens have handles the same rectangular shape, to fit the token carrier. I assume given @Robin Moira White 's posts above that the WSR also uses tokens with rectangular handles, because you can't use shaped token handles with GWR token carriers!

That's right - Minffordd-Rhiw Goch and Rhiw Goch-TyB use the Electric Train Staff (the big chunky ones) and the other sections use Miniature Electric Train Staffs. You potentially have to exchange tokens with either size though - exchanges at Porthmadog are normally done out of the signalbox window for trains on the "Ffestiniog" platform.

The Old Company certainly used miniature staffs - I've seen a couple of them, kept very securely in an "out of use" way - and I think at least one of the miniature staff instruments is an Old FR instrument which survived closure.

The WLLR before preservation generally used one engine in steam working, apart from a period when it used staff and ticket with telephone messages instead of block instruments. Nowadays they have a divisible staff which I think has a built-in hoop for the main portion - I have seen it, but didn't take a photo.

 

While I do not know the answer to this it is worth remembering that it was quite common for token machines to be located in areas other than signalboxes. As a child I remember visiting mother's friend who was Station Master at Three Bridges. I would be taken to the loco shed, signal box and then on the loco - an H Class (eat your heart out Tom!) - to Rowfant. As I recall the staff machine at TB was located in a room near the branch bay platform - released of course by the box.

On many Scottish railways the token instruments were housed in the Station Masters office rather than the signal box. In recent years I've worked a few trains over the Blaenau Ffestiniog branch. The token machine at Llandudno Junction is kept in the station supervisors office there.

Peter

 

Presumably the station supervisor's office is rather more convenient for traincrew to access!

I can think of at least one preserved railway that has token instruments in station offices - the KWVR. Here's a quick snap of the Oxenhope key token instrument, taken through the ticket sales window! No doubt there are other examples - at Arley there's an intermediate token instrument in a spare corner of a workshop, and at Boston Lodge the intermediate instrument is in the lobby on the signing-on desk.

 

In the late 70's(?) I seem to remember the token machines at Tenby being in the station building not the box - and the signalman rushing to the box as a DMU held outside the station tooted loudly

 

There are actually four at Horsted Keynes:

- Sheffield Park to Horsted Keynes
- Horsted Keynes to Kingscote
- Horsted Keynes to Ardingly (train staff, not key token)
- Sheffield Park to Kingscote long section

The last one looks anomalous, but it exists because of the possibility that a train may depart from either Sheffield Park or Kingscote with the long section token, but be required to stop at Horsted Keynes and give it up. Doing so would then require HK signal box to be opened (and long section working ceased) in order to receive it.

All of which is considerably more than would ever have existed in pre-preservation times, when the Ardingly and East Grinstead lines were double track, and you would only have needed a train staff for the section going south towards Lewes.

There are some photos (not mine) here:

https://www.derekhayward.co.uk/Blue...c-Tours/Horsted-Keynes-Signal-Box/i-53pDkMR/A
https://www.derekhayward.co.uk/Blue...c-Tours/Horsted-Keynes-Signal-Box/i-sD84L83/A

(Incidentally, picking up another earlier point on terminology: our rules use "clip and plug" in relation to points).

Tom

 

When and why were the Webb-Thompson machines removed?

I assume @Robin Moira White crack on the head had nothing to do with it

 

A quick question Tom - sometime after the 1958 closure the double line to Ardingly was reduced to a single line. Was this controlled by an electric train staff or just a "one engine in steam" (one train for those who like the modern vernacular) staff?

Peter

 

Where had the most number of single lines converging in the UK? Afon Wen, Dovey Junction, Barmouth Junction? Somewhere like that I imagine.

 

Just came across your post, yes there's a token machine at a location other than the box at Arley (also a very nice facilities for keeping warm in the winter in the same place!)

 

There was a signalbox on the "Lothian Lines", in the eastern suburbs of Edinburgh, that I think was a convergence of three single track lines into one, with no loop! I have a vague memory that the Lothian Lines used Tyers permissive tablet instruments, which are another "you tell the average enthusiast nowadays and they wouldn't believe you" type of device.

Looking it up, I'm thinking of Brunstane Park Junction/Niddrie North Junction - the history here is a bit confusing. Brunstane Park Junction and Niddrie North Junction were essentially on top of each other. Niddrie North Junction box closed and Brunstane Park Junction's box took over its responsibilities; it then controlled two separate, unconnected junctions.

Halwill Junction was another place where four single lines met, but the fourth line (to Torrington) was put in in such a way that it could be worked completely independently of the "main" station. The signalbox had a token instrument for the Torrington line, but it had its own platform, its own loop (ground frame operated) and off the top of my head the connection wasn't signalled for through running.

 

What about on the GNoSR network? Looking at my copy of Jowetts, I wonder about the GNoSR station at Elgin?

 

I think the junctions were all quite spread out though and each controlled from a separate signalbox.

Similarly Bewdley as a whole was also the junction of four single-track branch lines, but controlled from two signalboxes (both working three single-track and one double-track route in that case).

 

Has the token exchange on the 7F ever been used during an event?

 

I'm smiling because back in the staff and ticket days, williton to blue anchor was green/square, minehead bay to blue anchor was blue/triangle and minehead main to blue anchor was red/octagonal, so nothing likw the standard. I can't now remember williton to crowcombe/ bishops lydeard with its various long and short section staffs but I think they might have been the MD/BA ones recycled when EKT was installed there.
And of course the first WSR (1976) staff was manufactured from Mr RailWests grannies (or mums?) rolling pin..
Ian Coleby

 

Sounds like an excellent thing for the job!

I wonder what the oldest surviving staff still in use is. I'm sure I've seen a claim somewhere that the St Erth-St Ives One Train Working Staff is still the original from 1877 when the line opened.

 

Kidderminster Railway Museum has a number of the SVR's square tokens from the GWR / BR era, on which you can see traces of the different colours. Curiously, I’d never noticed until digging this picture out that one on the right is for Buildwas to Coalport, which lay either side of Ironbridge. There was always a passing loop at Ironbridge and I’ve never seen reference to it being switched out.

There is also a much earlier electric staff from Bridgnorth at the bottom of the picture.

 

Not pictured is their Bewdley South-Bewdley North (Back Road) token, which at under 30ch must have been one of the shorter token sections in the country. It's now worked under token regulations using AB instruments and direction levers.