If you register, you can do a lot more. And become an active part of our growing community. You'll have access to hidden forums, and enjoy the ability of replying and starting conversations.

S&D Railway Trust

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by Andy Norman, Feb 24, 2020.

  1. Monkey Magic

    Monkey Magic Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2018
    Messages:
    3,498
    Likes Received:
    6,845
    Location:
    Here, there, everywhere
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    I think within this whole discussion we are making one massive and potentially fundamentally wrong assumption. We are assuming that all those involved in this are rational actors. That they will listen to reason, logic, and advice. I am not sure that we are dealing with a rational actor. Also, this is where checks and balances are important in ensuring that individuals do act as rational actors and I am not sure that there are effective checks and balances on the board,
     
  2. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2011
    Messages:
    25,496
    Likes Received:
    23,738
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Grantham
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Fair comment, but mine was in response to the stereotypical view of how lawyers act. Despite not being one, I felt it necessary to correct that view. I find your view depressingly convincing.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
     
    BrightonBaltic and ross like this.
  3. Monkey Magic

    Monkey Magic Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2018
    Messages:
    3,498
    Likes Received:
    6,845
    Location:
    Here, there, everywhere
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    The silence is deafening.
     
  4. gwilialan

    gwilialan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2012
    Messages:
    1,658
    Likes Received:
    3,891
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Out there somewhere
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    And, of course, if the personalities on one side or another are not risking their personal money why should they worry...? They can always walk away without a care and start something else.
     
  5. 6960 Raveningham Hall

    6960 Raveningham Hall Member Friend

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2016
    Messages:
    713
    Likes Received:
    1,033
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired.
    Location:
    Near St. Austell, Cornwall.
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    What I was objecting to was the use of the words ‘most people’.

    This forum has several hundred members, all of whom I’m sure are aware of what’s happening at Washford, yet all I see is a group of maybe two dozen people going round in circles repeating the same old nonsense.

    Maybe I’ve missed it, but I have seen no mention of this on other railway forums, despite it being publicised in the railway magazines. Could it be that the silent majority are waiting for all the facts to be made public?

    Or maybe it’s being whipped up by individuals trying to get some sort of advantage out of the situation.
     
  6. 6960 Raveningham Hall

    6960 Raveningham Hall Member Friend

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2016
    Messages:
    713
    Likes Received:
    1,033
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired.
    Location:
    Near St. Austell, Cornwall.
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    We don’t all spend 24 hours a day at the computer.
     
  7. Monkey Magic

    Monkey Magic Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2018
    Messages:
    3,498
    Likes Received:
    6,845
    Location:
    Here, there, everywhere
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Still not answering @Matt37401 's question I see. And he's not the only one who has asked the question since the eviction notice was given, and there still hasn't been an answer.

    So now is your chance.
     
  8. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2011
    Messages:
    25,496
    Likes Received:
    23,738
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Grantham
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Different fora have different focuses, so I draw no conclusion from whether this is or isn't covered on those. And sometimes it's just passing comments that tell the story - I've seen a couple of very acid asides elsewhere that, due to the nature of the relevant forum, haven't gone anywhere.

    Meanwhile, I appreciate your distinction about "most people", but would observe instead that "most people" who have commented on this thread have despaired over the action being taken against the S&DRT. I find the nature of comments very interesting, being largely divided as I see it between those appalled by the manner of the action, and those insisting on supporting the management, whether outright or with reservations on tone. Interestingly, I have seen virtually no comments suggesting a reasonable rationale for the action, with the one that comes to mind not actually stating such a rationale, merely suggesting there are two sides to the discussion.
     
    Swan Age, ross, MellishR and 3 others like this.
  9. gwilialan

    gwilialan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2012
    Messages:
    1,658
    Likes Received:
    3,891
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Out there somewhere
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Just wondering...

    With no ticket income and ongoing monthly costs (utility bills, insurance, loco hire fees?) is there going to be enough left in the kitty to face expensive legal action anyway?

    Seeing as how we have been bombarded with letters and press releases from the Plc. pleading poverty does anyone think last year was good enough to build up a reserve?

    Or will it turn out , as some have suggested, that the railways dire financial situation at the start of last year was somewhat exaggerated?
     
    ross and Monkey Magic like this.
  10. RailWest

    RailWest Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2011
    Messages:
    3,805
    Likes Received:
    7,445
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    West Country
    This is my fundamental problem with this saga. I have seen or heard various comments as to who said/did what and when, but nothing that can suggest any rational reason why any recent actions or inactions of the S&DRT should cause the Plc to take this action. If there is any such reason, then IMHO so far the Plc has singularly failed to state it clearly and concisely in public. It is difficult not to come to the conclusion that the decision to evict was made simply in a fit of pique or something similar.

    I am reminded very much of a former boss, who was apt to make 'snap decisions' without a full grasp of the situation. Having done so, no amount of patient reasoned explanation and supporting evidence from his senior staff would convince him to change his mind - it was difficult not to conclude that he simply did not wish to appear 'wrong' or not in full control. Eventually he moved to another project (big sighs of relief from us, loud groans from his new 'home'), where one of his staff was the husband of a colleague in my office - at the end of the first week he came home and said wearily to his wife "now I understand why you complained so much about Mr X" !
     
    BrightonBaltic, tracker, jnc and 6 others like this.
  11. flying scotsman123

    flying scotsman123 Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2013
    Messages:
    10,440
    Likes Received:
    17,941
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Cheltenham
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    You can only reasonably object to "most people" if you can show that more people actively support the eviction than oppose it. Claiming there are hundreds of people who haven't expressed an opinion is meaningless, there are over 7 billion people in the world, do you want 3.5 billion people to express their outrage before accepting that "most people" are against this?

    I have seen mention of this on other fora, but by their very nature this topic is more at the periphery of the subject matter they exist for and they all have fewer WSR-minded members so by default this site will always have the largest discussion on this subject, as it's firmly within the bounds of what one would expect to discuss on NatPres. And for what it's worth, elsewhere the best defence of the eviction has been "There's two sides to every story". Well, yes there is, but crucially here we've seen both sides. Both sides have issued more than one press release and we've made our judgements accordingly.

    Could you perhaps explain what "the same old nonsense" is please? The only reason the same old arguments keep getting repeated is because occasionally someone comes along to tell us all to shut up about and it presumably sweep it under the carpet and forget about it. We then all come back with the same, pretty good reasons why we think this is bad. Not once has anyone managed to give a good reason for taking these actions, apologists have only ever sought to try and convince us all that it doesn't matter. Well, if it doesn't matter, why are they being evicted in the first place?

    I fear your last sentence could be more prescient than you think, but not for anyone who has taken part in this discussion...
     
  12. Greenway

    Greenway Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2008
    Messages:
    3,906
    Likes Received:
    3,704
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    South Hams
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    The income of the WSR, according to some posts here on NP, is that it has been haemorrhaging for some years. At the same time expenditure has inevitably increased. The money from some support groups also fell, particularly around the time of the Ex6 saga. It appears that Lloyds Bank have been instrumental in saving the line from bankruptcy but those arrangements were made last year well before the present crisis occurred. I suspect the Bank are watching closely.
    Given that the line is unlikely to be operational until mid summer - well into the tourist season - coupled with the reluctance, maybe for many older people, to travel far from home plus the financial constraints forced upon a large part of the working population due to the lockdown, things are not a rosy picture for the WSR and, I suggest, many other heritage lines.
    I believe, despite the many appeals for funds, that the Heritage railway scene will be the same later in the last semester of 2020 as it was at the commencement of 2020. Quite a few projects will have to be put on the back burner or even dropped.
     
    ross and Monkey Magic like this.
  13. flying scotsman123

    flying scotsman123 Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2013
    Messages:
    10,440
    Likes Received:
    17,941
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Cheltenham
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Absolutely, all those funds being raised by various railways won't be being used for shiny new capital projects. It'll simply be for keeping the railway afloat and functioning when we all come back to it.
     
    ross, Matt37401 and Monkey Magic like this.
  14. twr12

    twr12 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2007
    Messages:
    1,541
    Likes Received:
    698
    You’ve summed up the entire country there!
     
    ross and Monkey Magic like this.
  15. Monkey Magic

    Monkey Magic Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2018
    Messages:
    3,498
    Likes Received:
    6,845
    Location:
    Here, there, everywhere
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    I can’t speak for other people but given that every line is asking for support I can only support a few. I try to work out 1) who needs my help the most and 2) are they well run. I hesitate to use the word ‘deserving’ of support but when I look at how some lines are run I am reluctant to give money to support people who engage in bad practices, behave poorly and show little appreciation of support.

    If faced with a choice between giving money to the S&DRT or the WSR PLC, I am sorry to say, but this is an easy decision to make, and the money won’t be going to line the pockets of the PLC.
     
    tracker, Blue Horizon, jnc and 7 others like this.
  16. 6960 Raveningham Hall

    6960 Raveningham Hall Member Friend

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2016
    Messages:
    713
    Likes Received:
    1,033
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired.
    Location:
    Near St. Austell, Cornwall.
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Thanks for your response. I take on board the points you make although I don’t necessarily agree with them.

    As for the “same old nonsense” I shall give you some examples of what I have read on this thread so far. People suggesting that our Chairman plans to use the Washford site as a depot for his fleet of buses. Then it’s going to become a pet farm similar to the one on the SDR.
    We even had one i***t very helpfully pointing out that the avatar used by the acting Chairman of the WSRA is an anagram of ‘Old Fart’.
    Another suggestion is that the Chairman plans to use the line to run a fleet of DMU’s between Minehead and Taunton.

    Not to mention several claims made that have been challenged as being inaccurate.

    I wholeheartedly support JJP and his board and I make no apologies for it. I accept that my stance makes me fair game for those who maybe don’t wish him, his Board or possibly the Railway, to succeed, but, with the issue now in the hands of our legal friends, I know that further clarification ot the eviction should not be made.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2020
  17. Monkey Magic

    Monkey Magic Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2018
    Messages:
    3,498
    Likes Received:
    6,845
    Location:
    Here, there, everywhere
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Can you answer the question - how does evicting the S&DRT and engaging in expensive legal action to do so benefit the WSR in a period of financial crisis?
     
  18. flying scotsman123

    flying scotsman123 Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2013
    Messages:
    10,440
    Likes Received:
    17,941
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Cheltenham
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Fair enough on all of those fronts! If you look back I think on all occasions I have pointed out that they're fanciful notions and distract from the real issues at hand. You demonstrate that quite well, as soon as you have some demonstrably ridiculous assertions in the mix, it is far far easier to dismiss the whole lot as rubbish when clearly there are some serious issues here. It's also clear that JJP is an unpleasant individual, even if I don't subscribe to any nefarious ulterior motives, I do genuinely believe he wants to get the WSR on the right track in his own way. I just don't think he'll achieve it the way he is going about things.

    I can totally understand why you might support JJP and the board generally. The WSR is apparently in a parlous state and so presumably you accept the need for tough decisions to be made. The 4110 debacle can probably be put in that category. It wasn't handled terribly well, but ultimately it was a tough decision to raise what was concluded to be urgently needed money.
    That's where the S&D Trust eviction is different though. I really fail to see how this is a "tough decision to be made". I don't understand what purpose it serves to the WSR. They lose an attraction at one of their stations (albeit minor), a dedicated group who actively maintain the station, a small rent income, and a heck of a lot of goodwill. Even if the eviction had been done properly that last one would have been present to an extent, but the way it's been done has only served to make things worse.
    So thre are still two fundamental questions that the board have not answered - Why was this a necessary tough decision that had to be made - how does it benefit the WSR? And secondly, why was it done in such a way to bring the WSR even further into disrepute? There is no question it has done that, and I thought the chairman wanted an end to infighting. This is the single most controversial ation most likely to lead to infighting since the days of the X6 IMHO.

    PS thanks too for responding, it's nice to have some reasoned debate from the other side, just as there's been a lot of rubbish posted about the chairman, there has equally been a lot of rubbish chucked the other way!
     
    tracker, Blue Horizon, jnc and 18 others like this.
  19. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2011
    Messages:
    25,496
    Likes Received:
    23,738
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Grantham
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    I'd like to echo @flying scotsman123's thanks for standing up to be counted on this one - you make fair points, and deserve for them to be treated fairly. In that spirit, I'd like to explain why I disagree with you on Washford, and am concerned that your position is not the best for the WSR.

    Firstly, you mention various comments about how the site might be used. At present, there are no plans in the public domain for what may be happen at Washford. Nature abhors a vacuum, and this leads to rumours and unrealistic suggestions being made. However, the way that some were reported seemed either to reflect local rumours, or to be an attempt to infer motives from what still seems like a motiveless act.

    That leads me to my second observation - that there appear to be no rational motives for this act. The notice came out of the blue, and did not state the grounds for the WSR plc to end the tenancy. There have been no official statements about those reasons, save for a couple of frankly vicious comments attributed to members or those close to the board of the WSR plc. Far from considering that now lawyers are involved nothing can be said about this, I take the view that had those grounds been made clear at the time, they may have avoided the need for legal involvement. Indeed, I draw the conclusion that the reason no further clarification can be made is that any such clarification can only undermine an already weak case on the part of the plc.

    That leads me to the question of support for the board in general, and JJP in particular. As JJP rose to prominence, while the way that he cast himself as saviour surprised me, as did the seeming depths of the WSR plc's financial and infrastructural position, I saw nothing to make me doubt that this was a case of a company that had been allowed to run itself into the ground, and was now facing up to a legacy of under-investment. The removal of 44422 didn't ring particular alarm bells, given that this loco has had a mixed history in preservation, while the complaints of one ousted volunteer seemed as though they might say as much about him as anyone else. As time has gone on, the MO of the WSR plc board under JJP has become visibly more "put up or ship out", with ever diminishing space for critical friends. The use of professional advisors who have long worked closely with the chairman, especially when they have no background within the WSR, and the shrinkage of the board to a bare minimum, both reinforce that perception of that the management of the WSR is in the hands of a small group, not fully rooted within the wider WSR community. Some might be tempted to refer to a clique or a cabal in such circumstances.

    Early this year, Paul Whitehouse's departure from the WSRA chair was reported. At that time, I was quite prepared to believe the announcement as written. It is now apparent that it was not the whole truth, and that his relationship with JJP was broken. That came out as the ripples from the Washford affair became apparent.

    Your use of the phrase "JJP and his board" is, in that context, revealing. My view, both of companies and through history, is that autocratic rulers are doomed to failure. The lucky ones don't live to see their autocracy fail; the unlucky go down with their autocracy. The consistent theme in all of these is of a narrow leadership, bunkering down against all opponents, and dismissing alternative views as though heretical and or treasonous. I sense that the WSR plc, under the chairmanship of "JJP and his board" are in grave danger of falling into that trap, if they haven't already.

    I can support a strategy which involves significant investment in the infrastructure, driving a GWR theme, and massaging the timetable to maximise profitability. I could even be persuaded to support a policy that would take the WSR down the sort of road the P&DSR have followed. But I recoil at the behaviours being reported, and whatever strategy is being followed being pursued in this brutal way. And, if I may mix my metaphors, I also note that those who claim that you can't make an omelette without breaking eggs, are frequently the children devoured by the revolutions they've set in train.

    The WSR deserves better than that.
     
  20. echap

    echap New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2009
    Messages:
    168
    Likes Received:
    396
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Church Volunteer
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    I believe that the suggestion of a pet farm came from the Plc itself, as seen in the railway press.

    Ed
     
    Swan Age, ross, Herald and 2 others like this.

Share This Page