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West Somerset Railway General Discussion

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by gwr4090, Nov 15, 2007.

  1. Robin Moira White

    Robin Moira White Resident of Nat Pres

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    The Williton to Bishops Lydeard OES staff was round in section and brown in colour.

    you also need to know that it was used to release the ground frame at the Minehead end of the Bishops Lydeard layout.

    The pitfalls of that colour choice became clear one day long long ago when an enginemen reset the frame for the platform during the run round and the Loco stopped by the ground frame to pick him up. However, he noticed that he had a loose shoelace and put the staff on the engine footstep while he made his boots secure.

    And you have guessed it, the Loco trundle back onto its train and made it all the way to Williton before anyone thought to look for the staff. Only to find it missing.

    Quite by chance I (during my spell as Operating Superintendent) arrived at Williton pretty much the same time as the train, which was passing another there.

    This being the early 1990’s, motive power was not as plentiful as recently and none lived at Bishops Lydeard. So it was relatively easy to declare the staff lost and for me to act as Pilotman to get the next train to Bishops Lydeard.

    Meanwhile, an extensive search of the (largely brown!) lineside by the Bishops Lydeard Station staff turned up the staff and on a later trip a beaming member of staff announced that he ‘had something for me’, secured, as I had requested, in the station safe.

    And so normal working was resumed.

    But the enginemen Concerned and I did have a quite formal discussion about the custody of staffs a little later.

    Robin
     
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  2. Wenlock

    Wenlock Well-Known Member Friend

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    How did you as Pilotman release the G/F? Was there an emergency release key locked away somewhere?
     
  3. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    It was before my time, but I suspect it had something to do with reasoning that EKT equipment would remain more widely available than train staff equipment, particularly at a time (in the early 1990s) when the line was expanding and opening new single line sections.

    I believe it was done by train staff.

    Tom
     
  4. Robin Moira White

    Robin Moira White Resident of Nat Pres

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    The S&T provided me with an Annet’s key of the correct pattern.

    Robin
     
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  5. RailWest

    RailWest Part of the furniture

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    Not quite correct :)

    A study of single-line sections will show that shape/colour combinations varied quite a lot. Round red was quite common in BR days when so many lines were being converted to 'basic railway' OES working.

    The colours and shapes used on the WSR were entirely the result of (a) whatever timber I had available when making them and (b) whatever colour of paint came to hand :) I also had an 'outline plan' to make sure that all the sections had unique colour/shape combinations, even though in theory it was only necessary for adjacent sections.

    The first WSR staff was octagonal red for the MD-BA section, octagonal simply 'cos I happened to have a length to hand. BA-WN was green, square. The first staff for the WN-TN section (as decided by the Operations Manager at the time!) was triangular blue, but this 'disappeared' over the winter, rumoured into the fire-box of the 'Flockton Flyer'.

    By this time a replacement blue triangular staff was under construction for WN-BL, designed to take the Annetts Key for BL (North) GF. However this was re-purposed at short notice to become the MD(Bay)-BA staff after the introduction of Minehead East GF. The existing octagonal red staff became the MD(Main)-BA staff. For reasons which escape me it was necessary for the key from the red staff to be transferred to the blue staff and a new, different key put into the red staff - this was done on an operational day during which time the 'normal' red staff was replaced by a temporary one of the same colour and shape, but much smaller. A replacement for the WN-TN staff was rustled up at short notice by using my recently-deceased grandmother's rolling-pin (now in BARM) and this in turn was replaced by a 'proper' round, brown staff for WN-BL.

    The original square, green staff for BA-WN was not designed to hold an Annett's Key, as there was no need at the time. However, with a view to the eventual introduction of a GF at Washford (although in practice that was commissioned many years later than anticipated) a replacement BA-WN staff was prepared that was capable of taking an Annett's Key. For some reason that was never called into service, so it still hangs in pristine condition in my cupboard :)
     

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  6. RailWest

    RailWest Part of the furniture

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    Sorry, but I must disagree. The four rings in the middle were for alignment and working of the instrument mechanism and were all fixed at standard spacings. The fifth ring at the end controlled the 'configuration' and was variable in its position. (Note: Miniatures ETS of the 'M' and 'S' patterns were different again.) The design of the staff and instrument suggests that originally there were only 3 configurations A, B,C, the fourth D being a latter addition and relatively rare. METS had 6 configurations

    The GRW standard for key-token colours was:- A Red, B Blue, C Green, D Yellow. Tyer used the same colours, but in a different pattern. Somewhat confusingly, some SR examples follow one pattern, some the other.

    Tyer used the same pattern of central 'hole' for both tablets and tokens:- A Round, B Square, C Triangular, D Diamond. Here again, odd exceptions occur just to confuse the unwary! Tyer advertised more than 4 configurations, but the 'extra' seemed to have been only used abroad.

    I'd better stop now before I write the entire book on the subject, but those who are interested might like to read http://www.trainweb.org/railwest/gen/signal/sl-intro.html :)
     
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  7. RailWest

    RailWest Part of the furniture

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    As regards locations with large numbers of single-lines diverging, do not forget that they they did not all need to be worked by the same method.

    So, with 4 configurations of 'large' ETS, 3 common configurations of ETT and at least two different types and sizes of ETT machines, and at least 4 different 'M' and 'S' type METS, not to mention the RSC type of EKT machines, you could have as many as you like provided you had room to house them all !
     
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  8. Robin Moira White

    Robin Moira White Resident of Nat Pres

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    One of those 'lost' pieces of knowledge is that to work a Webb-Thompson instrument sucessfully you need to 'roll' the staff as you withdraw the staff from the instrument.

    Robin
     
  9. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Ah, I'll take your word for it - I recalled that some of the rings were for alignment and some for configuration. I only got to find out when I was tangentially involved in a discussion about whether our museum should bid on a purported Sheffield Park to Horsted Keynes staff that came up for auction. They declined to bid...

    Tom
     
  10. Forestpines

    Forestpines Well-Known Member

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    The report on the Abermule/Abermîwl collision mentions that it had been suggested that it should become standard practice to alternate the type of equipment between block sections, so that traincrews would be immediately alerted if, say, a key token was followed by another key token or a tablet with another tablet. The inspector, Col. Pringle, did not go as far as to recommend this be done, but thought it a more useful suggestion than giving each token a distinctive colour - which suggests that colouring tokens and staffs is a post-1922 development. The colonel's opinion is very clear: if train crews didn't bother to read the tokens, he didn't think they would be likely to pay attention to colour or shape either.
     
  11. bishdunster

    bishdunster New Member

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    In the late 80s, during an engineering possession, I was showing a new recruit the workings of Minehead ground frame, which was getting a little "tired" by then, as I was demonstrating that if one train staff was out of the frame the other could not be released to my amazement the other staff turned and was able to be withdrawn !!!! This was swiftly followed by a walk along the platform with both staffs to see the powers that be, and request the S&T dept to attend at their earliest convenience .
     
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  12. RailWest

    RailWest Part of the furniture

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    I trust that you secured the GF first before leaving it unlocked and unattended...:)
     
  13. RailWest

    RailWest Part of the furniture

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    IIRC there was somewhere - I think the LMS in Scotland - which did adopt the practice in later years of deliberately alternating ETT and EKT on alternate sections. AFAIK however neither the GWR or SR did that deliberately, the former being predominently ETS originally and the latter ETT. The subsequent use of EKT by both (but with different patterns) was mainly down to new works or other alterations, although the SR seemed not to start using EKT until much later than the GWR.

    Use of colour on 'manual' staffs for distinguishing purposes was certainly wide-spread in the pre-1900 period of OES and TS&T working. (The various staffs used on the Barnstaple Victoria Road' triangle were all coloured.) I'm not sure whether ETS and EKT were coloured from the start. Abermule of course was ETT and I'm not aware of any instances of tablets being painted (no doubt now someone will find an exception!).
     

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  14. tracker

    tracker Member

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    Stating facts? It would take you a year and a day to read this thread, and facts would not be clear after you had done so.
    Robin L.
     
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  15. Martin Shaw

    Martin Shaw New Member

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    I can add some info to the recent non WSR deviations from the subject.
    Quite correct Chris, the Highland main line north of Stanley Junction was so equipped in the early 1930s. Quite why I'm not at all certain, there is no doubt the alternating different styles would have been welcome but pretty expensive. I think far more likely is that the pre existing No6 ETT machine would have been 40 odd years old by then and no doubt in serious need of overhaul and it would also have allowed the LMS to cascade some to sections where the converted No 3s still existed.
    I think this could be questioned slightly, the GWR went from ETS to EKT almost exclusively after the invention of the latter presumably to save royalty payments, the situation on the SR is rather more complex, the SECR had relatively few single lines and they mostly used ETS, the LBSCR again largely used ETS, and the LSWR No6 ETT, but as Chris states neither railway saw fit to copy the LMS example.

    Key tokens apart from the key end itself came in various styles and materials, cast iron, brass, and alloy and the inclusion or not of a shaped cutout seems to appear to depend on the railway. I haven't seen an alloy one with a cutout and I have some cast iron ones which originated in Wales but are unfortunately overplated so I don't know. I do have a brass one from the CK&P which does have a cutout. By contrast tablets always seem to have the cutout.

    ETS sections and the Bluebell Railway. Prior to 1955 there were two ETS sections, Horsted Keynes to Sheffield Park, and SP to Culver Junction. When BR had to reopen the line they obviously didn't want to pay a signalman at SP so the SP to Culver Junc instruments were recovered and the HK instrument at SP was moved to Culver Junc making one long section. After the closure south of HK and the need to make a single line from HK to Ardingly, the instrument at Culver Junc was moved to Ardingly until the closure of the passenger service. My understanding is that when the Bluebell purchased the then bit of the Blubell the ETS instruments found there way to remain in Sussex. ETS working between Sheffield Park and Horsted Keynes was re introduced at I think Easter 1972, which is scarily close to 50 years ago. Again my understanding is that the ETS instruments were getting a bit long in the tooth and the present EKT arrangements were brought in purely because of the relative ease of obatining a sufficient quantity of machines and the availability of spare parts from Tyers successors.

    And finally the WSR, there have been many posts and I have nothing of great note to add beyond the fact that my late grandfather and father took me on an afternoon visit to Watchet in I suppose 1957 or 8 where we walked around the harbour looking at the coasters moored and watching a train or two pass. I hope I might be able to do that again someday.
    Regards
    Martin
     
  16. MellishR

    MellishR Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    This is a serious drift from discussion specific to the WSR, but clearly worthwhile in itself. Should it be moved to Mutual Improvement? Would there be interest in widening the discussion to how the various forms of tablet/staff/token/what-have-you work and how they are (or are not) interlocked with signals? And what about the systems now in use on NR on single tracks and bidirectional multi-track lines? How do those achieve the same (or better) level of safety?
     
  17. RailWest

    RailWest Part of the furniture

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    Actually, it is not often realised that circa-1908 the GWR formally adopted ETT as their method of single-line control, using the Tyer's No 7 instruments. However this changed again circa-1912 when their own engineers developed EKT. As a result the use of ETT on GWR lines was confined largely to a few bits of 'new works' (eg the extension of the Camerton Branch, the 'long section' working on the Chard Branch etc) until they absorbed a lot of Welsh lines that already had ETT. Many ex-GWR lines retained ETS well into the 1960s, one of the last few sections being that from Maiden Newton to Bridport which was converted to OES in 1965.

    The L&SWR initially used a few sets of Tyer's No 1, then moved rapidly to No 3 and later to No 6 (with an odd few No 7 thrown in for good measure!). Many lines retained No 3 until well into BR days. The S&DJR started with No 1 and still had several sets at nationalisation, along with No 3 and No 6 and a single set of McKenzie&Holland.

    The SR also had few sets of METS dotted about their network. The Lynton & Barnstaple had the rare ETT No 7A. Other versions (eg No 4 etc) existed in odd corners of the SR universe (eg IoW).
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2020
  18. AnthonyTrains2017

    AnthonyTrains2017 Well-Known Member

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  19. AnthonyTrains2017

    AnthonyTrains2017 Well-Known Member

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    Any news on WSRA steam fayre? Cancelled this year?
     
  20. Due to go ahead on 1st & 2nd August as things stand. Committee will review situation towards the end of next month.

    Barrie
    Rally Committee Member
     

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