Locomotives that NEARLY made it

Yes Beyer Peacock Ryde was officially preserved and kept at Eastleigh for a few years. Then unfortunately cut up during the war time drive for scrap metal.

I never knew the Bluebell had their eyes on Chale. At one point the WLS were after it too, but sadly didn’t have the funds to buy it as well as Calbourne.

The IOWSR has made noises in the past about building another O2. So at least they already have a bogie in the unlikely event that does happen!

 

There's an attempt to collate SVR-based locos visiting elsewhere, that has locos at Tyseley in 1969, 1970, 1983 and 1986. If there are others, it would be great to hear

https://www.svrwiki.com/SVR-based_locomotives_visiting_other_events

Thanks

Patrick

 

Thanks,that might have been where I saw it. As I recall 80151 arrived from the EARM around 1997 before steaming in 2001. Despite the Bluebell currently being home to 3 Std Tanks, 80154 is a sad loss given its history to the Lewes to East Grinstead line as well as being Brighton Works last steam locomotive constructed there.

2 others were 46220 Coronation and 60014 Silver Link. Both were of interest to Billy Butlin for his holiday camps. Luckily he was able to save 2 of the 3 surviving Duchesses along with other locos.

Wasn't A1 60145 St Mungo also close to being preserved by Geoff Drury.

 

Moel Tryfan

What about some of the first generation DMUs, there was one which was stored at Crewe because there wasn’t space at York and was vandalised and destroyed,

 

`You are talking in WIBNy mode there Paul. £500 is a lot of money if you haven't got it. At the time they could only afford either/or but not both. Given the nature of the line who is to say that going for the tank (E4) rather than the tender engine (K) was not the logical decision. The K was after all verging on "big chufferitis" in early '60s Bluebell terms.

Peter

 

I’ve heard that too, think it was cut up and he purchased A2 Blue Peter instead.

If he’d saved St Mungo, half a century later we might have had a new build A2 called Tornado...

 

This individual felt it was more a matter of "don't want it" rather than "can't afford it". As I said before I cannot vouch for this but the Bluebell has a paucity of Brighton equipment of which very little is serviceable.

 

44888 was exhibited at Derby Works Open Day in the summer of 1968 after the end of steam. It appears in several photos looking in good condition. It was apparently reserved for the Severn Valley but ended up being scrapped at Cashmores Great Bridge. On the way it’s tender got separated and ended up in BR use at Willesden. Later sold to Woodhams at Barry the tender was spotted en route to South Wales by a SVR member and intercepted. It can be seen in a convoy at Bewdley that included 4930. Can anyone from the SVR remember the story of Black Five 44888’s nearly survival? The tender survived to run behind 48624.

 

I think you are applying your standard of "what I wish happened" rather than "what was actually feasible". There is a good reason why so few LBSCR loco designs have been preserved: it is because they had largely all been scrapped before mainstream preservation started. By the 1960s, the only types that remained were a few Billinton E4s; a few Terriers, a couple of C2x goods and a few LBSCR K class moguls; they had all pretty well gone by 1962. Of those, the K was the one that slipped through the net. But if you had wanted a Stroudley D tank, or a Billinton D3 or similar, you needed to be a preservationist in the 1950s, not the 1960s. The bottom line is that the LBSCR locos all just went too early to be preserved. Essentially the score card for the LBSCR reads "Gladstone" (privately preserved in the 1920s); an E1 (sold as early as 1927 and survived, much modified, in industrial service); an E4 (on the Bluebell) and no fewer than ten Stroudley Terriers (more or less all of those still operational by the 1960s). Nothing more survived much beyond 1962, and most of it gone a decade earlier, which is why so little is preserved.

The same applies to carriages: on the mainland, LBSCR bogie carriages had all gone long before the Bluebell formed, which is why the earliest carriages on the line were SECR or SR. A few LBSCR carriages remained in traffic on the Isle of Wight, which is why some survive in preservation there. Very few bogie carriages were subsequently grounded out of service, so there is more or less no chance of restoring new from that source (though the Bluebell has one LBSCR bogie carriage that has been recovered as a grounded body, but realistically is unlikely to acquire any others); it is slowly acquiring a train of Victorian LBSCR four wheelers.

Back on topic, there is a discussion of the early preservation on the Bluebell here: what is interesting is the number of locos that were considered but not taken up. It is notable at that time that the desired types were very wide (GER J15??) and not focused on the former Southern Railway, and certainly not focused on the LBSCR. That focus on more tightly drawn preservation aims came later.

https://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/earlydays1.html

Tom

 

On the subject of grounded body LBSCR bogie coaches. Didn’t the Bluebell once have the option to buy 735? For whatever reason they decided against it and it went to the IOW (now 2403).

 

VERY surprised the Bluebell were after a J15.

I think it’s mentioned on the M&GN Society website that 4 J15s were put aside for preservation, but only 65462 was saved.

 

In reply to both Dan Hill and Hicks. I've heard tell that St. Mungo was scrapped/passed over, on account of the tyres being at or very near scrapping size [one turning short of scrapping size]...... So Geoff Drury went after Blue Peter instead. Bear in mind that Alan Pegler had been lucky to have Flying Scotsman re-tyred at North Road [Darlington] in 1965 just before the works closed, both the Gresley A1/3s and Peppercorn A1s had 6'8" driving wheels.

 

Not a personal memory, but there was a 'last chance' appeal in SVR News in July 1969 noting it was available for sale at a price of £2,850 and asking that "Anyone interested in purchasing the locomotive for use on the Severn Valley line - and with the money to do so - should make contact before Saturday, August 9th." It appears there simply wasn't enough time (or interest) to raise the money. A subsequent article in SVR News stated that 44888 was the last locomotive cut up at Great Bridge with only the cab fittings being saved, mostly for use on 46521.

 

I suspect a case of a combination of what was available, and could be put into traffic as immediately useful. (By the same token from the accounts above, the Severn Valley considered LSWR O2s a few years later). Taking locos for specific local authenticity wasn't a real concern at that time, and probably couldn't have been even had it been desired. The GWR railcar was another interesting one, which stemmed from the early notion that the line be operated as a genuine transport facility - that idea died very quickly and the concept of running as a tourist attraction took over. It is hard to get into the mindset now, but at that time there really was no model: the early pioneers were writing the rules as they went. I would always be loathe to criticise on the grounds of "why didn't they do [X]?"

Tom

 

Certainly wasn’t criticising the Bluebell for not acquiring a J15, was just very surprised they considered it lol.

Always thought it was a shame 76080 was scrapped at Barry. Would have been a useful locomotive for a heritage line.

 

Probably down to where they were stored (rather too visibly, I suspect), in the paintshop at Eastleigh, whilst the scrap line was ...... well, the scrap line.

 

Just picking up on the last point about preservation objectives, everything I’ve ever read about early preservation (say pre 1970) suggests that the objective was to preserve steam rather than specific companies’ locomotives. Rolling stock appears to have largely been an afterthought, based on what could be acquired for use, and authenticity in the way we now see it was a far off dream.

Focusing on the missed opportunities of xyz company on abc line, which we now see as a typical branch of its pre Grouping company, feels like a WIBN exercise in what would have been nice to have had happen, not a fair reflection of the way things were back in the day.


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Yes indeed. It is the only item of IOWSR carriage stock that did not run on the IOW prior to the preservation era.

 

I think in many cases it is what was gained also meant that something was lost. If St Mungo had been saved then perhaps Blue Peter wouldn't have been, if Coronation had survived then Duchess of Hamilton wouldn't have, if the K had made it then the E4 wouldn't have.

As has been said elsewhere, locos that the NRM took were not taken with a view to actually running them ie the crab.

We could also say which lines ought to have been saved instead of the ones that were. Would say the Ilfracombe branch have been a better alternative than the Minehead branch for example? What if the MHR had been able to go towards Winchester rather than Alton, or projects like the S&D at Radstock. And it cuts both ways, what would the SVR look like if Nabarro had been successful?

There are lots of near misses which look worse with hindsight and a few that look like bullets dodged.