Current and Proposed New-Builds

Meanwhile, digressing slightly, the following more recent vehicle popped up in my Twitter feed this morning, thanks to @timmydunn:
https://twitter.com/mrtimdunn/status/1253924580089102336?s=21


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You want one of these ... the ultimate footplate ride!



Tom

 

This is a genuine preserved locomotive, one of four which ran the Patiala State Monorail in the princely state of Patiala in India. It steamed for many years at the National Railway Museum in Delhi, although I don't know it's current status.

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And I think the Patiala loco is *older* than the Drummond bug! Although they are pretty much contemporary....

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Or on one of these - sanding where you need it or coal management.

 

That's absolutely fantastic Tom, Thanks for sharing! I've read about the Lombard Locos, and seen historic footage, but I didn't know that any had survived!

Richard.

 

OK it's been quite some time since I've made a suggestion. OK I'm not sure if they've been suggestion, but here goes, an LNER A2, that is to say the North Eastern Raven class 4-6-2 of 1922. They were introduced at the same time as Mr Gresley's A1, whilst hey were trailed against the A1s they were quite up to the same standard losing out to the A1s and remained a same class of 5 locomotives. One was fitted with modified Gresley A1 boiler thus creating a "Spare" original for the other 4 locos'.

https://www.lner.info/locos/A/a2.php

OK the A2s may have been suggested, but I haven't trawled through the 169 pages so far.......

 

Were they victims of Gresley propaganda or were they as unsuccessful as the books tend to make them out to be?

Given that new build coaches are getting quite common on narrow gauge lines, I am surprised that there hasn't been a move to recreate some important lost coaching designs, especially as the number of converted summer houses seems to be getting smaller.

 

What do you class as 'important'? Are you talking about one-off examples for special occasions only, or more useful but run of the mill third class stock to move the punters from one end of a preserved railway to the other?

 

There can't be that many truly memorable designs of coach to choose from for new builds but for me most of them were Gresleys! One of the streamlined sets for main line workings and a tourist stock set for heritage railways.

 

Perhaps a little bit of both. Don't forget Gresley ordered more GC Directors and GE B12s as well as a further 10 NE T3/LNER Q7s over and above the 5 turned out by the North Eastern. As for the Raven 4-6-2s they were something of a stretched NE Class Z LNER C7 Atlantic with an extra set of Driving wheels. Also when you look at the link you'll note that the valve gear is inside unlike the Gresley A1s. Whilst the Ravens did I believe some development potential, they weren't on a par with the A1s. By the mid/late thirties there were 100+/- Gresley Pacifics in service classes A1, A3 and A4, so there was little need for a small none standard large express locomotive. OK I know the K4 2-6-0s were a small class of 6 , but the were designed specifically for the West Highland line and fitted the need for small but powerful locomotives for that route.

 

The trouble with new build carriages is really, one is a bit pointless, you need a rake, and then you're into newbuild loco costs territory, at which point it becomes very hard to raise that amount of money from fundraising efforts, and railways would rather spend it on something else.

 

Well, most of the recent narrow gauge new builds have been single or a couple of carriages. You could argue that many lines have been building ranks of carriages since the 1960s.

In the case of narrow gauge it is because there was no alternative other than to build new carriages. But... I think long term the reality is that there are a finite number of carriages available and sooner rather than later, it may well become more viable to new build carriages than to try to rescue a basket case mk1. (And we are seeing coaches that would have been cut up say 20 years ago as being no hopers now being restored)

If people get irate about liveries, what happens when it's a train of mk2ds or even and whisper it very quietly, mk3s.

I'd suggest the usual new build rules apply. Stock that is useful or stock that represents a significant design innovation or tradition. I think a lot of what has been done by narrow gauge lines gives pointers to future direction of travel.

 

I'm not sure I agree that there is a finite number of carriages available. Well, technically it is true - but what I mean is that I don't think there is a shortage of vehicles to restore for those who wish to do so. (FWIW, there is not a shortage of locos, either...)

Some eras are rarer than others. Victorian carriages are reasonably common, as are Mark 1s. It is the period between that is rare - bogie carriages from roughly 1900 onwards up to the BR era are much rarer, because by and large they didn't get saved as grounded bodies once their railway careers finished. Most of the pre-grouping ones had gone before mainstream preservation really got going; and for the grouping-era carriages, many survived in railway service into the 1970s and 1980s, but with the interiors stripped out, which makes them expensive to restore.

For grounded bodies, i.e. primarily Victorian 4 / 6 wheelers, there seem to be many available, for those with the skills to restore them. (And it is hard to imagine that someone could have the skills to new build, but not to restore). Where there is a shortage is in underframes; I think increasingly such restorations might have to consider entirely new underframes as the stock of suitable 1950s van underframes dries up.

Tom

 

If only! The usual requirements are that it's big, fitted with nameplates and is painted BR green. Smoke deflectors are a definite plus point!

 

Absolutely there are always more locos out of use than in use, and of course one of the criticisms of say Didcot is ‘why spend all this money on new builds while your own fleet sits unrestored’.

And of course there are more coaches unrestored than restored. But... and this is the but, I don’t see why someone might not identify a historical gap, or something that was lost (for example the LSWR diner that was lost in the fire at the MHR) and decide to make that the project.

When I look at the state of the mk1s that the CVR picked up recently, my thought was that 20 years ago they would have been straight off to the scrapyard, but at the same time, we know certain types are designs ie TSOs are in shorter supply.

I just think that where narrow gauge leads, standard gauge follows. They were new building steam locos in the 1970s and now no one bats an eyelid at the idea of a new build Mountaineer, or a new build 567 or 84xxx, or Beachy Head, and I think in a few years time, just as we see new build narrow gauge carriages so the same may well on standard gauge. It’s not necessary at the moment but I do think it is more likely than less in the future.

A wicked thought is that the first new build coaches will be a batch of mk1 TSOs. (The Paul Hitch memorial MK1 recreation project) A practical, useful design that will fit in on any line. Maybe with a few bespoke variations for different lines.

 

It's quite possible to refurbish mark ones and make the interiors suitably vintage looking. It's just a case of polishing the woodwork, reinstating the original lighting,
removing aluminium luggage racks, then selecting suitable moquette and matching linoleum.
For the exterior, any suitable 1950s' livery.
Easy, isn't it !

Bob

 

A 9F named in your honour?

I don’t think anyone has said restoring anything well is easy.

But I do think the kind of physical condition of mk1s is going to become more and more of an issue with time. And I think in time the question will come about whether or not it is better to start from scratch, than to ‘Triggers Broom’ it.

 

Nothing larger than 4MT