Liveries!

It's ok we're on lockdown!

 

Isn't the story that Mrs Smith rather liked it in red? Please don't tell me this isn't true because I really want to belive this

 

I don't think the Midland invented the term (though they may have popularised it). In colour chemistry, a "lake" is a specific type of pigment made by precipitating an organic dye from solution. (As opposed to mineral pigments made by grinding up a solid mineral). Their use certainly predates the Midland Railway!

Originally the organic dye was extracted form an animal or plant (for example, crimson lake came from cochineal beetles); in the 19th century organic dyes began to be made synthetically (often from the by-products of coke manufacturing, i.e. extracted from coal tar). Those synthetic dyes reduced the cost, increased the range of colours available and in some cases made them less sensitive to degradation from light.

Tom

 

Then take a look at Galatea/Alberta or Bahamas!

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Agreed, I'd love to see this livery.

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Looking at LMS and even Midland records, the terms were not always very consistent: both used "red" as often as "crimson lake", the LMS seems to have used "red" or "midland red" most often, and switched to "maroon" after the war. BR seems to have used "maroon".
They're all effectively the same colour, although the variation in paint make-up, undercoat, varnish, lining, cleaning, etc. had a significant effect on the colour, even before getting into photography.

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My understanding was that LMS crimson lake was continuous from Midland Crimson lake, but after the war the LMS changed the the darker, duller Maroon, which was then continuous with BR maroon, and thus I'd assumed LMS Duchesses were painted in crimson lake but BR(M) Duchesses were painted in maroon.

 

I’ve not heard that before and post war it would have only been applied to passenger stock not locos. Passenger and mixed traffic loco livery was black with straw numbers with straw and maroon lining which suggests that the maroon was a different colour to crimson lake

 

I believe from Essery & Jenkinson that "maroon" was exactly the same shade as "midland red" and "crimson lake".
Other factors may have made it look different at different times.

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Yes indeed as I mentioned previously. All three shades were supposedly made to the same specification, over the year, though folk swore blind no they weren't....... Though as Jamessquared/Tom has mentioned it could be down to the change from organic/vegetable based pigments to mineral based pigments.

 

Looks like we need a new definitive book on Midland/LMS/BR(M) liveries. '50 Shades of Red?'

 

It appears I have

 

What about the 800's and Thousands in Maroon as well?

 

Is it vaguely possible someone just renamed the damned stuff after grouping?

....... This is why I like black locos. Give 'em halfway decent lamps and you can get shut of red buffer beams too.

I may, or may not, be joking.

 

Sounds like something you'd sprinkle on top of an ice cream cone!

 

Warships and Westerns then you heathen

 

Probably very useful, John, but will no doubt run to several editions, as people unearth more 'evidence' of anomalies!

I knew I should have been more careful with words and was therefore tempting fate in the maroon/red/lake debate!

As far as the point I was making was concerned, it was the name which changed, if not necessarily the shade. The LMS and its antecedent(s) referred to 'lake' (or 'red'), whilst the reference to 'maroon', at least as far as loco liveries was concerned, only became a specific term with the 1946 livery lining. Interestingly, that was about the time that BS381 colour refences were introduced and even after that different names referred to the same BS colour.

Anyway, it seems a matter of record that the shade of red particularly would vary, due the traditional methods of manufacture, and it was only more modern methods and pigments that ensured consistency and capture. As with LNWR black, the extraordinary depth was obtained through the application of the under-coats, rather than the top-coat itself.

JS

 

Spot on James and shades of colour is something the human brain is not very good at remembering well. I can remember an article, again in the HMRS Journal, written by someone who worked on the belt at Crewe saying that Jubilees allocated to Bristol, working to Derby and the North and West route, weathered differently to those allocated to London and the industrial cities. I don’t know if it was his perception or true but there is some merit in the story.

 

Enjoy (or hit the roof)! http://www.preservedthumpers.com/articles-fictitious-liveries.html