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Recommissioning after Coronavirus

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by johnofwessex, Mar 24, 2020.

  1. Greenway

    Greenway Part of the furniture

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    Many weekly/monthly donations to a church are made by using envelopes. I expect that will continue. Visitors, in some churches are encouraged to use envelopes provided: that could continue.
    Churches i France are open. Churches in the UK are mooted to open early July for congregational purposes: many are presently open for individual prayer and reflection. One I am familiar with in Paris is busy again and even the fourth Mass of the day (6.30 pm yesterday) found many coming in after the service had started. It was well organised - sanitising station at the door and people escorted to seats which were, naturally at a safe distance apart from each other. The evening was lovely and warm and I guess many came in on the spur of the moment. They even used the choir stalls to gain seating (no choir, just a cantor).
    I doubt churches would wish to have a booking system, but heritage lines do have those systems. It does seem that booking will have to be part of things to come as overcrowding or standing will not - or should not - be tolerated. There are many who feel uncomfortable here on NP and I am one of them - about being cooped up in a railway carriage. However, judging by the clamour for beaches and open spaces recently, it does suggest that heritage lines will be on many peoples agenda. I am sure many of those in responsible positions are aware of this but it does need careful attention.
    Some lines seem hesitant - and rightly so in my view - about their re-opening dates; others appear to be rushing things I believe.
    All this, of course, relies on Covid-19 being suppressed with no leap in infections. I guess the jury is still out there.
     
  2. bluetrain

    bluetrain Well-Known Member

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    An unforeseen consequence of lock-down has been that my bank statement has become much shorter - due to disappearance of ATM cash withdrawals in favour of using credit card (a different account) for even trivial purchases. I suspect that change will become permanent for me. If lots more people now forego cash, it will doubtless accelerate the reduced provision of ATM machines.

    I was greatly cheered today to see the thread below. There is light at the end of the tunnel:

    https://www.national-preservation.com/threads/main-line-steam-is-back.1418142/#post-2579431

    I seem to recall someone on another thread regretting the absence from preservation of 4-6-2 tanks. Well, here is one!
     
  3. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

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    Just on this point, we're finding an increasing drift to other ways of donating, and needing to accommodate those. Covid has hastened some of this, as people who I'd expected never to stop using envelopes have sought other ways to make their regular donations.

    If the decline in cash use lasts - and I think it will - then we will have to find ways to accommodate those donors because the alternative will be that their money stays locked in their bank accounts, without a means to give at the time they want to give.
     
  4. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    My wife's church uses envelopes, and they are an effective way to collect money - if you are carrying any, that is. I think increasingly people won't be, which then requires alternative mechanisms.

    Tom
     
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  5. D1039

    D1039 Guest

    That's a thought. Kidderminster Town has a tap and donate point which does well. The railway, however, still has many cash donation points over its length in churns etc., and donation envelopes on trains. Railways will have to be more creative.

    One alternative is 'TEXT 5 to 45110' donations. That won't work for me, I'm on PAYG and there's a monthly dd to my credit card, which buys a data/minutes package. It means I have a perpetual balance of £0.01.

    We've not taken out cash since January and use bank transfers and cards (and in my case, phone). As of last week my wallet has no notes or change in it!

    A throwback: I was in the bank the other day (probate stuff) and the man at the next window was withdrawing £600 in cash, by writing a cheque to himself. He was paying utility bills over the counter by cheque too. Some will find these changes tough.

    Patrick
     
  6. David R

    David R Well-Known Member

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    And this is going to be a major challenge to a number of organisations and situations - think Poppy Appeal - how will that work without people carrying cash, charity collecting tins outside supermarkets, Beggars in the streets (whatever you may think of them), hobby businesses (WRVS markets, people making homemade cakes/crafts etc for sale). There is a tipping point where the whole cash infrastructure just disappears and this Pandemic has probably brought that tipping point very close. It's not just about access to Cash Machines (which has received most of the publicity), it's about retailers being willing to accept cash, for which they need access to change and the ability to pay in cash to a bank account. This needs bank branches or Post Offices or use of a cash carrier - then the cash carriers, banks and Post Offices need a network of Cash Centres to process and distribute the cash. The tipping point comes where the amount of cash being used no longer justifies the cost of the infrastructure, fewer bank branches = fewer cash centres = further to transport the residual cash = increased cost per £ of cash handled. Result becomes that if a retailer uses a security company to bring change and take away surplus notes then they pay a fixed daily charge + %age. If the fixed cost goes up and cash handling goes down there comes a point where it is cheaper to loose a few sales and refuse to handle cash. Even if they have access to a bank branch of Post Office the already significant %age charge for cash handling becomes uneconomic because the costs to the bank and post office network have increased and are spread across less cash in total - Result, the whole system collapses.

    We are very close to that point - as we come out of this crisis we may already have passed that tipping point - certainly in some parts of the country with the irony that areas more likely to become cash deserts are the most populous areas (London) leaving more rural areas that can least support the cost of the cash infrastructure who are probably the areas least equipped to go entirely cashless.

    Apologies for slight tread drift but this does have enormous implications for any organisation (including heritage railways) relying in any way on collecting tins/boxes

    David R
     
  7. Greenway

    Greenway Part of the furniture

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    You could give an envelope - small brown ones are cheap to buy - when getting your ticket(s) I suppose. Even on-line tickets are issued on arrival at some heritage lines. You would miss any gift aid option but gift aid envelopes can be more extensive to buy. Anyway a 'bird inn the hand is worth two in the bush' they say, as a gift aid option may get held over and possibly forgotten. After all visitors primary purpose is to, hopefully, have a great day out.
     
  8. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

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    In my experience, Gift Aid envelopes pay for themselves very quickly - when they're made easy to get hold of. If people have cash in hand.
    It does have huge implications, especially for charitable organisations which don't pay for cash handling, but do have to pay transaction charges for card payments. 2-3% may not sound much on an individual payment, but it's 2-3% of the donation that doesn't make it through, not to mention the cost of purchasing the card machines. As a parent, I also worry about the loss of the physical aspect of money for children learning to handle it - the message of handing a piece of plastic over for something is very different to that of handing real, tangible, money over and receiving change for it.

    The technology exists to deal with this - I bought my poppy by card from a collector 18 months ago - but it is another cost burden.
     
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  9. 21B

    21B Part of the furniture

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    There is a strong desire from many to return to volunteering. You may be right that some will not return or will delay their return for all sorts or reasons. I think speedily reopening is not the answer. A measured step by step approach building confidence is better. That is not to say this has to be slow or drawn out though. However, having volunteers working is not completely without cost and that's a delicate balance too when there is no income.

    Sent from my SM-A405FN using Tapatalk
     
  10. Gladiator 5076

    Gladiator 5076 Part of the furniture

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  11. 5944

    5944 Resident of Nat Pres

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    It's Zoono Z71 that's being used. No idea how effective it is really is, but various websites state it's 99.9% effective at killing coronavirus. It's £155 for a 5 litre bottle, but I haven't a clue how far that will go.
     
  12. Greenway

    Greenway Part of the furniture

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    This treatment by GTR, or something with similar efficiency, is ideally what Heritage Lines should be considering in order to re-open and stay open. But it is probably expensive and would cause a few raised eyebrows in the accounts department. However, most heritage lines do not have the number of trains and quantity of rolling stock that GTR do, so it might be feasible - and something they might have to do.
    Heritage railways and some other tourist businesses, have appeals/donations helping them keep afloat, whereas other businesses are not so fortunate. That might be a reason, seen in some quarters, to prioritise some businesses and not others.
     
  13. RichardBrum

    RichardBrum Member

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    or buy 80 litres of all-purpose sanitiser (probably more if you can buy in bulk), or 40 litres of handwash.


    Any fancy surface treatments aren't an alternative to cleaning, & heritage railways may find it easier to do more deep cleaning & regular cleaning than the mainline, as the carriages & premises are used a lot lot less.

    Peoples expectations also need to be taken into account. What looks better; some signage about a fancy treatment that the public won't know about, or really clean carriages, toilets with plenty of soap etc ?
     
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  14. gwralatea

    gwralatea Member

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    Although of course, conversely, GTR can pay people to clean its rolling stock. I know (even from this thread) that there are people keen to get back volunteering, but given the nature of the virus, cleaning rolling stock has just become potentially life-threatening/the thing that will make the public most confident about safety to travel.

    I (genuinely) wonder how long the queue is to get back and volunteer to do that?

    As someone involved in a small way with the lower tiers of professional sport (ie the players get paid but there is a reliance on volunteers), I'd say there is a resigned acceptance that not much is happening any time soon and we're just going to have to hope that not too many clubs go out of business. And that's sport. I suspect heritage railways are in the same camp. I don't want us to lose railways but I think we may well lose a few.
     
  15. andrewtoplis

    andrewtoplis Well-Known Member

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    Question - how long does the virus last on surfaces?
    From previous news reports, it was suggested that it will die off after 12 hours on all surfaces - and I'm guessing that most, if not all, heritage railways have at least that gap between trains overnight.
    So a good cleaning regime will be vital for passenger confidence, particularly overt measures like doing door handles mid way through the day, but I'm not sure this is life and death?
     
  16. gwralatea

    gwralatea Member

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    Overnight might be ok. Within the day though, it *is* life and death of you're susceptible and you get it. I'd be astonished, looking at what the big railway is doing, if preservation can "get away" with less than what they're doing. And as soon as something went wrong, that is how it would be reported - "they tried to wing it, they didn't have the funds to do it properly, so they went with something worse instead of putting lives first and not opening."

    I'm 39 and would ride on a preserved railway tomorrow, the above is over-dramatic, but that's what the press would do because that's how they need to report the news. *Either* preserved railways can match the regime that the big railway ends up with, or not.

    Actually, there's an argument that we would need to do more than the big railway - most modern rolling stock has been designed to be easy to clean - you can probably get a 165 set clean in the same time it takes to do 1 mk1 (I know, "why don't they try it occasionally then...?"), and preserved railways carry far more children (and adults) pressing their faces right up against windows, etc.

    I'm glad I don't have to plan this, because it's a nightmare.

    It's also likely that the situation is going to be similar to sport - if you read the government's roadmap steps for the resumption of sporting fixtures, it boils down to the govt saying to governing bodies (FA, RFU, RFL, ECB etc) "you can do what you like, we absolve ourselves from blame, but it's your procedures (and therefore your liability) if and when anything happens."

    That's the world we're going to be operating in I think - not satisfying the govt that what we're doing is safe, or being told by the government what safe looks like, but rather doing our own thing and owning the positive or negative consequences ourselves (as railways, not as individual members of the public) on our own heads and with our own wallets. Get that wrong and a line has had it.

    Bluntly, sport is waiting to see what football does, because they've got the most money, and then seeing if they can match that - if they can't they won't restart because as soon as something goes wrong it'll be "why didn't you do the same as the FA?" "We couldn't afford to..."

    Heritage railways really need to be watching the main line likewise and asking the same questions, because if it ever boils down to a preserved railway getting it wrong they will be in court trying to explain why their precautions were not the same as GTR or whoever. There night be very good reasons, but that's going to have to come out in court because the legal action will get that far first.

    Just my opinion obviously, but I think discretionary leisure businesses (sport, railways, etc) need to stay near the back of the reopening queue. Livelihoods of a minority do depend on them, but the travel or the watching of the match doesn't *need* to happen, so they need to be very sure they've made it safe before they start selling tickets. At least the big railway can say "people need to get to work, it was an acceptable balance of risk" - preserved lines don't have that argument and the balance of risk is completely different (and not in their favour) IMO.

    If we can meet or exceed practice on the national network then all systems go IMO. If not, then we need to kick our heels longer.
     
  17. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    To hell with kick-ball (spherical balls behave far too predictably to be interesting, IMO) ..... I'm waiting for the RFU to work out how the hell scrums can be set, or tackles, rucks and mauls managed, whilst adhering to social distancing. Hope we've not already seen the last ever rugby match, but can't for the life of me see how the sport could return, ahead of some effective vaccine. :(
     
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  18. misspentyouth62

    misspentyouth62 Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure things are that simple tbh - check this story https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52840763

    Use of CCTV was made in Singapore to track transmission to Singaporean Church goers from an asymptomatic Chinese couple who sat in the same seats the previous day.
     
  19. andrewtoplis

    andrewtoplis Well-Known Member

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    I get the argument that modern stock is easier to clean by design, though we have relatively few vehicles in service at any time

    I'm repeating myself, but I believe we are seeing the bar set vastly higher for us than in other comparable situations and this will make things very difficult for ourselves.

    Has anyone suggested a legal threat against places where a person caught the virus?
     
  20. andrewtoplis

    andrewtoplis Well-Known Member

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    Several hours earlier, not the previous day - paragraph 13 of that article.

    I'm not suggesting this is an exact science, but worth factoring in.
     
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