Bluebell Railway General Discussion

The unanswered question at the moment is whether there is a legal obligation to wear them on a heritage railway. My interpretation of the regulations is that they are a legal requirement, based on the definition of public transport given in the Regs:
“Public transport service” means any service for the carriage of passengers from place to place which is available to the general public (whether or not for payment, whether or not all of the places connected by the service are in England and whether or not there are breaks in the journey)
Normally, heritage railways generally carry passengers from place to place and are available to the general public. However, if it becomes an out and back journey with no break of journey it is arguably no longer place to place.

 

If the heritage railway trip is an out and back journey with no chance to get off, the fare may be liable to VAT at 20%.
Rail travel is zero rated VAT; a “fairground ride” incurs standard rate VAT.

It may be better for heritage railways to comply with regs for national rail travel, to avoid having to take VAT out of the fare.

Sometimes, you can’t have it all ways.....

 

I think the VAT concession is quite broad, for example meaning that the fare element of a round trip diner is zero rated rather than being treated as subject to standard rate.

 

If the operating company of a tourist railway is a Charity (such do exist) would it be eligible for a V.A.T. rebate if their manner of operating trains rendered them V.A.T. liable?

 

I don't believe so - the tax concession for charities lies in the Gift Aid scheme, not in allowing VAT rebates for commercial activities.

 

Deleted - mis-read original post!

 

I thought Gift Aid was to do with Income Tax rather than V.A.T. but what do I know.

 

It is* - which is my point.

* - actually, also CGT, but that gets lost sight of.

 

VAT is applicable to all sales by a VAT registered firm.
The details is in what rate of VAT is applied, for example:-
0% Essential food, children’s clothes, public transport
5% electricity, gas, heating fuel
20% cakes, petrol, TVs, dining out

 

If you run your vintage railway as a visitor attraction rather than a public transport function presumably you become liable for V.A.T. I recall miniature lines installing all sorts of " halts" in the early V.A.T. days so they could sell tickets to and from "destinations" to avoid V.A.T. Should a railway running in the present circumstances be held not to be providing a public transport service and thus liable for V.A.T., provided the operating company is a Charity it ought to be eligible for refund.

 

You seem extremely keen to find such a financial benefit to having the operating company being a charity Paul - presumably it would help if they were arts council accredited too?

 

Quite a few operating companies are charities. Someone on here enquired whether operating with only one station in use during the "emergency" would no longer qualify as a public transport provider for V.A.T relief purposes. It occurred to me that, if so, the railway could possibly reclaim V.A.T. provided they were a charity.

 

The original post by Jdwitts (3853) raised the question of face masks being worn on Bluebell trains, to which Tom, amongst others, responded. I hung on to Tom's post with my comment that my reading of the Regs made them compulsory and cited a possible get -out of out and back workings as not meeting the regulatory requirements for face masks. However, this was immediately hijacked by people discussing vat implications and the original topic was forgotten. Are face masks going to be a legal requirement? I think so.
As for whether vat would be payable, it is a non-starter. The Bluebell is a registered transport provider and thus zero rated. It matters not one bit whether it runs a train that is out and back with no opportunity of egress during the journey. Dining trains are already a similar operation and are zero rated, as would be any similar special train on the big railway.

 

Agreed. As I understand it’s the nature of the operation (eg public service or enclosed attraction) that is relevant to VAT being standard or Zero rated and not the nature of the operator (eg Charitable Plc or limited by shares Company).

 

Thank you for this. However it does not quite deal with my query. Basically this was whether a railway preservation setup which offered rides but not one which, either temporarily or permanently, provided a transport service could get a V.A.T.
rebate if it were a charity.

 

I don’t believe there is any such concession from HMRC. And, if you pause to think of the loopholes that could open up, nor do I suspect that HMRC would ever be likely to permit such a loophole.


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I am so looking forward to a time when our conversations can include railway matters, rather than endless speculations about VAT and PPE

 

But what colour should the facemasks be painted in, that's what I want to know...

 

Full Wainwright livery, SECR optional.

 

If you can achieve that with a facemask, you never know it might make the cover of a future issue of The Bluebell Times

Tom