Edward Thompson: Wartime C.M.E. Discussion

Have I mis-understood the terminology? Does "centered" mean that the position on the rail on the wheel cone is correct for the curve, assuming no lateral force?

 

Just a quick diversion. I have been doing some research into the “Bayonet” coach from a number of sources, and in one LNER book I found a letter on it.

The most incredible thing about this particular bit of my research is the link to my own family.

My late uncle Arthur Dudley Carvin was Eisenhower’s aide throughout the Second World War. On the wall above me is his Legion of Merit he received.

It is entirely possible that he might have met Thompson, Peppercorn and Colonel Bingham in the development of the Bayonet Coach. Extraordinary stuff!

 

The geometry of the rail wheel interface is far more complex than the simple effect of coning. That may be true when the axle is truly at right angles to the track but, in the case of a steam loco with a rigid wheelbase then, in the case of six coupled wheels, at least two pairs are going to be attacking the rail head at an angle. then, there's flange contact. The sharper the curve the greater the contact and this can prevent the effect of coning from happening. I've mentioned a rigid wheelbase steam loco but the same effect occurs with bogies or, indeed, any rigid multi wheeled vehicle, including a bogie.

 

You’re assuming a wheel in equilibrium - but on starting on a curve, the vehicle isn’t in its equilibrium position.

On a straight piece of track, the coning absolutely acts to steer the wheel set towards the centre. But on a curve, the outside rail is higher than the inside to an amount far more than the coning. There is an optimum amount of super elevation based on curve radius and design speed, such that gravitational force of the train falling towards the inside of the curve balances the amount of force required to accelerate the vehicle turning at the curve radius.

If you are going slower than the design speed - in the limiting case at rest - gravity will pull the train towards the inside of the curve until the flange rubs against the rail. It’s why you get a squealing noise from a train traversing a curve at low speed.

Tom

 

Surely there are other forces at work that will in practice limit the impact of the forces you describe, meaning that the reality will be somewhere between what you describe and the the equilibrium position?

 

The reality is as Jamessquared describes. It should also be remembered that the 'coning' is only fully present on a newly-turned set of tyres. The 'coning' starts to disappear as the tyre wears.

Andy

 

Ok - thanks.

 

Perhaps I may offer a couple of thoughts on the Chapter headings.

There are separate chapters on the P2 rebuilding and the Great Northern saga. These were certainly the aspects of Thompson's work that generated the most comment and controversy, on this forum and elsewhere. But if they are given too much emphasis and space, it may unbalance the overall account of Thompson's work. On the design side, one might expect to see highlighting of the B1 development (which would become the second most numerous loco type of LNER family origin, after the O4) and the Thompson carriage designs (also built in large numbers, albeit mostly after Thompson's retirement).

Not every reader will be familiar with the chronology of Thompson's period of office, or indeed with the chronology of WW2. The labeling of some chapters by year alone looks a little stark. I wonder if it might be helpful to expand the chapter headings with a major in-year development, if there is one. So "1941 - Thompson becomes CME", "1942 - Introduction of B1 4-6-0", etc. For some years of course, the key development will have been not new design, but improvements to maintenance and availability.

 

I really like this and I will review it this week when I can.

 

I had a DM recently inquiring about the large engines' availability statistics for 1942-1946. I have checked my files and I put together a PDF, possibly for this forum, in Dec 2019 to that end. Please find this attached.

Since collating those statistics I have been dutifully filling out the main spreadsheet for all LNER classes 1942-1946, and producing a separate one just for the big LNER engines - as their engine cards have allowed me to use additional data to give us the full picture from their build dates to their scrapping dates. This is the longest of long term projects but useful to have in reserve.

 

Afternoon all,

I have finalised my chapter headings. Please see below:

I have after much painstaking chopping and changing, decided to keep the yearly sections - which I feel gives a better context for the time frame Thompson and his team were working in. I have however listened to the feedback I've had, and have separated the P2s and Great Northern into their own sections. I have started to add in the "Use of Engine Power/Availability Statistics" as their own section.

 

So I've had all of the feedback in from those who volunteered to look at the book.

I just wanted to say a big thank you to you all - the exercise has been a very good one, and I think I have a clear way forward to finishing the book, in the most presentable state, that makes the best use of the data and tells the story in the best way.

One of the best suggestions has been to develop a "style guide" - for how my points/etc come across within the book, and I think that this could be a wider debate for improvement for writing railway history books. A sort of "what you should do" when starting to write a railway history book.

This is something I am happy to put together as part of my Thompson project, and to distribute for free on here for any other budding historians.

I am keen to discuss this on here and I am putting together a quick bullet pointed list of ideas to that effect for discussion.

A starter for ten though - what do you think you should do when starting to write a railway history book? A few points put to me:

• Less personal - do not use "I" - more formal
• Show data, and show it in a clear way
• Be consistent in referencing, and use referencing software from the start
• Be mindful of other writers and be careful in your wording

 

Well - it’s been a long time coming - but the LNER availability figures for 1942-1946 are complete!











The full tables will be available as a set of appendices in the back of the book, however I have also pledged a copy to the Gresley Society for members to peruse for their own research.

Further, if there’s anyone here who would like to read them - or would like the format for their own work - you only have to ask, and I will happily provide.

I have more or less reached the end of the line with the Edward Thompson research. The book and the research it spawned, are as complete as they are going to get. I’ve had a few leads on a publisher and when I know more I’ll publish the details here.

I just wanted to say a heartfelt thank you to everyone who has contributed on Nat Pres.

Whether you were anti, or pro Thompson, or had no stake in it at all, there’s been a great debate had in this thread and a lot of work gone into having that debate.

It’s been a privilege and I’d like to thank the mods for allowing it to continue for so long as they have. I am aware it has at times put a strain on a few people’s patience - and for that I apologise sincerely.

So it only remains to say that this will likely be my last word on the matter here - I can hear the cheers and sighs of relief already! - and just to once again say, thank you for your support and engagement.

best wishes,

Simon

 

Surely you'll tell us when it is published?

 

I’ve had a few leads on a publisher and when I know more I’ll publish the details here.

 

I do hope so. I should very much like to buy a hard copy, partly for me, but partly so I can thrust it in the face of someone I know well who often lends me books and is rather, ahem, close-minded over Thompson!

Sent from my VOG-L29 using Tapatalk

 

Perhaps you could stretch student finance to buy two copies, and give your acquaintance a nice present

 

If I lend it he'll have to read it before giving it back rather than just quietly put it on the shelf!

 

I think the point is that there will always be people who will be close minded over Thompson. It's just the nature of the beast.

Whether it's misplaced loyalty, or misunderstanding the evidence we have, or whatever, there will always be people for whom Thompson can do no right. The sheer number of LNER publications out there which play on that trope of "Thompson saw to rid the LNER of Gresley" militates against objective assessment. It's simply up to the individual to read what has been produced and make their own minds up.

 

I would like a copy of the availability figures as i feel that this is only part of the pressures Thompson was under we do not know how much pressure munitions work was affecting planing and short term materials availability was having on works output.
after all there was a world war going on and personality's who clashed where moved in other war production industry's. Thompson had responsibility's other than locos and rolling stock to assist war production.