If you register, you can do a lot more. And become an active part of our growing community. You'll have access to hidden forums, and enjoy the ability of replying and starting conversations.

West Somerset Railway General Discussion

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by gwr4090, Nov 15, 2007.

  1. The Dainton Banker

    The Dainton Banker Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2014
    Messages:
    1,720
    Likes Received:
    3,186
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Over the hills and far away
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    I too have asked Rodders this question a week or so ago but the only reason he put forward was an expression of his personal dislike of an individual. It should also be noted that he is not a member of the WSSRT . I am not sure whether he has any real objection to the merger as such and, even if he does, whether his views are representative of others in the Trust.
     
  2. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2011
    Messages:
    25,495
    Likes Received:
    23,734
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Grantham
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    I think his objections are transparently obviously grounded in support for the plc leadership he was instrumental in enabling, and in his personal antipathy to at least one individual. Quite what his views of the WSSRT are beyond that specific point is very hard to tell.
     
    baldbof, Fish Plate and Lplus like this.
  3. Lplus

    Lplus Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2011
    Messages:
    1,919
    Likes Received:
    991
    Location:
    Waiting it out.
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Fair enough, though I read the word complicity as suggesting active participation. A matter of semantics perhaps, but given the levels of anger recently.....

    I'm sorry to say that with the situation as it is that those who express an opinion without any logical explanation are likely to be judged on the worst interpretation of that opinion.
     
    35B likes this.
  4. Monkey Magic

    Monkey Magic Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2018
    Messages:
    3,498
    Likes Received:
    6,845
    Location:
    Here, there, everywhere
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    I am assuming this is a reference to my earlier comments, which I stand by.

    My opinion is that silence is complicity and this goes for any form of injustice. To me the treatment of dissident volunteers, groups or 15 is an injustice.

    The inference seems to be that holding this view means that I think that should those I disagree with 'lose' that the losers should be excluded. I would oppose this as vehemently as I am to the eviction etc because that would be an injustice, it would be divisive and it would not help to move the WSR forward. I may consider people complicit, that there are people whose views and behaviour to be egregious, but no one should be excluded from the railway.

    Silence and complicity means that there is nothing to stop any other individual volunteers or groups being treated badly in the future. Silence means there is nothing to stop the DEPG, WSSRT etc being given the same treatment. To quote (perhaps incorrectly) John Bradford 'There but for the grace of god go I.' And in my view people should not sit on the sidelines and let others be mistreated.
     
    Dennis John Brooks likes this.
  5. FrankC

    FrankC Member

    Joined:
    May 27, 2009
    Messages:
    468
    Likes Received:
    2,110
     
  6. FrankC

    FrankC Member

    Joined:
    May 27, 2009
    Messages:
    468
    Likes Received:
    2,110
    It would be very easy to post an item full of barbed comments and sarcastic criticism of the posting by the 10 prospective trustees of the Steam Trust (as seems often to be the norm on Nat Pres – “if you don’t agree with them, insult them”). This present posting is not intended to insult anybody, I know many of the 10 personally, and some of them I would count as friends. But I do think they have made a category error in taking the step they have.

    In my view there is a degree of confused thinking going on here. On the one hand, the group have made clear that they are standing on a joint prospectus, and their objective is to merge the Steam Trust with the WSRA, thereby to conflate the PLC shareholdings and then to be able to have a high degree of influence on the PLC which they perceive as failing. It is highly unusual, in the extreme, for a group of 10 people to stand on a joint prospectus to be trustees of a small charity. They did not talk to the present trustees before putting themselves forward at the last minute. Various of their supporters were not members of the Trust until recently, although membership has always been open to them. So how they can say that this action is not a hostile takeover of the charity (under any normal business definition of the phrase) is difficult to understand. The use of the phrase “hostile takeover” does not imply that they are coming in with pitchforks and thunder-flashes, but simply that they are not invited or welcomed by the existing board – no more no less.

    So why should this group want to do this? Claiming that this will increase efficiency of the two charities is an interesting suggestion, but the evidence is probably against it. Two of the prospective new trustees are WSRA trustees, who have presided over the continuing decline in WSRA membership over some years. The leader of the group is the chairman of the joint railway fundraising group, which the statement shows has not been as successful as one would hope. If I was chairman, I would see that as my failure.

    Turning to the PLC, which comes in for so much criticism in this forum (and apparently from this group), a group of people have been working flat out to ensure the WSR survives. We know that we are supported by the vast majority of the active volunteers. For some of us, who are not without a wide range of business and life experience, this has been one of the most difficult challenges of our professional careers. At some times it has been an almost full-time job - when we are, after all, volunteers. And at a time when we have all been going through a completely unprecedented international crisis, which – for the railway – could not have come at a worse time. All the prospective trustees could have helped if they had wished. But if you want to help then you have to be a team player – to insist that it is your way or nothing leads potentially to chaos. And I’m afraid I have no time for those who insist that all the troubles of the WSR lie at the door of the Chairman. I have observed the last eighteen months at very close quarters, and there is no doubt in my mind that there are very few people I know – and certainly none I know on the railway – who could have brought the railway through the crisis it faced earlier this year. And is still leading us out of the mire. Of course some things could have been done differently, but the railway is in a much better place than it was and than it might have been.

    It is going to be quite a long time before everything on the WSR is going to be fine, but this group are simply diverting effort from where it should go. Our everyday passengers are not going to travel more often because the structure has been changed, and because some group have won a particular argument through pushing their way through. Visitors simply want to see the trains running. I don’t understand why this group don’t try to help!
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2020
    GWR4707, Fixit, Dealornodeal and 6 others like this.
  7. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2011
    Messages:
    25,495
    Likes Received:
    23,734
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Grantham
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Then we must disagree; there are more ways than one in which to debate, and I do not believe that simply bashing people over the (metaphorical) head to say "you must take a stance" is an effective way to win them round. While I respect your integrity over how to deal with the "losers" afterwards, I believe your approach likely to make reconciliation much harder.
     
  8. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2011
    Messages:
    25,495
    Likes Received:
    23,734
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Grantham
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Others will doubtless comment on this or that aspect of your post. I will merely ask one question, and make one observation. My question is why it is that this massive team effort, led by such an excellent leader, has managed to create such a toxic atmosphere around itself, and has failed to deliver any meaningful form of running season that would allow those visitors to pay money and ride on the trains that they wish to see running. My observation is that the desire of that team and it's leader to reach out to the wider public seems strangely limited for an organisation so dependent on general goodwill, and surprisingly lacking in focus.
     
    Hirn, baldbazza, free2grice and 14 others like this.
  9. snappertim

    snappertim New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2008
    Messages:
    97
    Likes Received:
    472
    Gender:
    Male
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    I very rarely post on this forum and I may well regret doing so this time.

    I am a member of WSSRT [12 years], a WSRA member and PLC shareholder so I guess have have most bases covered,

    If I were one of the 7 WSSRT trustees, I would also consider a missive out of the blue from 14 or is 9 or 10 as "hostile", however it might be couched. My concern is that should the present Trustees be outnumbered by the new incoming group, that we might well lose some very good people, at a time when we need every friend we have got pulling in the same direction. My fear is the may take the view that by voting in the new Trustees by the membership will be seen as a "vote of no confidence". I am sorry I don't subscribe to the "You have got to break eggs to make an omelette " argument. I do not see any of the wouldbe candidates as curators of the 2 museums, a Treasurer, archivist , or even doing the legwork to ensure the Trust becomes an accredited museum. This of course is Plan B, and I hope this does not happen.

    With due respect to members of this forum your "likes" in support are irrelevant unless you are a WSSRT member.

    The Articles of the Trust have a gaping hole in them which the "10" have walked straight through which is a warning sign maybe for other such Trusts.

    Now, having said all that, I am also certain that there is a proper grown up discussion to be had as to how the WSR can reorganise itself to maximise such advantages there are in Taxation, Gift Aid, Inward funding and dare I say it in reducing internal strife. I am a fan of the PDG and I hope that everyone on the WSR "family" will be consulted. This will take time and will need the input of much greater minds than mine. It will take money, which is in very short supply. However the first priority is to ensure we have a working railway in Spring 2021
     
  10. Lplus

    Lplus Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2011
    Messages:
    1,919
    Likes Received:
    991
    Location:
    Waiting it out.
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    If you used the word connivance instead of complicity, I would have no argument with you.
     
    Monkey Magic likes this.
  11. jnc

    jnc Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2012
    Messages:
    1,511
    Likes Received:
    2,706
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Western Atlantic
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    I get the strong impression that more than a few contenders don't feel the line is truly in significant danger (something I have commented on before). How they come to that, I'm not sure: maybe they assume the line will somehow continue to muddle on, as it has been doing for some time now; or perhaps they are so focused on the struggle with their 'enemies', they don't/can't see anything outside that. I suspect some won't truly believe/accept it until the receivers are called in.
    I see your point (about how undesirable it would be to exclude anyone), but I have a hard time seeing how the entire assemblage would be able to 'come together' in the aftermath (assuming there isn't a closure).

    Noel
     
  12. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2011
    Messages:
    25,495
    Likes Received:
    23,734
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Grantham
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    I hope you aren’t bitten at, because that is a very fair assessment of the risks of the approach of the “14”. I rather wish that the chair of WSSRT had approached it from this perspective rather than the one taken; it would allow for a conversation focussed on the WSSRT’s purposes rather than just through the lens of the future arrangements for the WSR as a whole.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
     
  13. Lplus

    Lplus Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2011
    Messages:
    1,919
    Likes Received:
    991
    Location:
    Waiting it out.
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    The question is - will they be welcomed by the membership?
    Not actually relevant except as an example of ad hominem..
    And still no realistic and logical explanation of the expulsion of the SDRT and how it helps the WSR to survive - and make no mistake - that expulsion has been the catalyst for the recent explosion of dissent - adding to the long list of grievences the Plc seems intent on burying.
    And they aren't going to travel less because the structure is changed either, so what does it matter if the structure of charities changes...
     
    35B and ross like this.
  14. flying scotsman123

    flying scotsman123 Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2013
    Messages:
    10,440
    Likes Received:
    17,941
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Cheltenham
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Interesting post generally, thanks for providing something to chew on from "the other side" rather than just more personal attacks/insinuations. On the bit above in particular, I think the examples above prove exactly the opposite to what you set out to suggest. You could just as easily argue that the fact that fundraisinghasn't been as successful as it might have been partially led to the conclusion that these actions are necessary. You claim how the current situation which exists in the status quo is poor is evidence for not doing a thing which would change the status quo, which seems odd to me? A bit like (and I apologise for using an extreme example, I'm not saying either "side" is comparative to Trump) the Trump campaign showing pictures of all the rioting under the Trump presidency and saying "This is what will happen under Biden!"
     
    Matt37401 and 35B like this.
  15. Sidmouth

    Sidmouth Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2005
    Messages:
    9,635
    Likes Received:
    8,303
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Alderan !
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Re the Chair

    allowing you some benefit re the chairman . The WSR is still with us and hasn't yet reached the conclusion that many doomsayers (including myself have predicted) . To be fair the chair was probably left with very little choice although I think it is fair to say that with hindsight the chair has been too conservative and risk averse on the comparative evidence so far . Rightly or wrongly the chair is getting the critique as they have become the face of the WSR

    we will take you appreciation of the chair's efforts and thank you for sharing

    however

    it doesn't resolve nor excuse the handling of the S&D trust . nor does it resolve the poor corporate affairs management and especially feeding the increasing negative perception of the railway . Again hindsight is wonderful but I'm sure many on the WSR wish that this has been handled better
     
  16. The Dainton Banker

    The Dainton Banker Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2014
    Messages:
    1,720
    Likes Received:
    3,186
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Over the hills and far away
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Frank,
    I am pleased to see some input from you as I respected your actions and explanations during the "ex-6" saga. However I find myself in agreement with 35B's comment above. Despite regular comments, requests, and enquiries on this thread from many of us who are genuinely concerned about the WSR we have never been given even the most rudimentary explanation of what is going on and why.
    In addition, I am particularly puzzled by your reference to the proposed merger of the two support organisations in which you say that the evidence is probably against such a merger increasing the efficiency of the two charities. As I understand it the merger suggestion was made in the Bailey report and has been accepted by the Plc Board. Is this not the case or are you expressing a personal view ?
    And to pick up from your final paragraph "Visitors simply want to see the trains running." we have to ask why they are not ? Other lines are relaying track, repairing bridges,
    continuing their extensions but nothing is happening in West Somerset.

    Mike
     
    Will Foster, 35B and jnc like this.
  17. Lplus

    Lplus Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2011
    Messages:
    1,919
    Likes Received:
    991
    Location:
    Waiting it out.
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    If the new trustees are voted in, then, yes it suggests the membership are not "confident" in the approach taken by the incumbents - that isn't to say the membership considers them to be incompetent. How certain are you that the hopeful trustees will actually be voted in?
    There is such a thing as "moral support"
    It could be a warning to other such trusts that they should consult their membership more often - particularly on the more important aspects of the trust's activities....
    And the closer the members are to the decision making process the better.
     
  18. Monkey Magic

    Monkey Magic Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2018
    Messages:
    3,498
    Likes Received:
    6,845
    Location:
    Here, there, everywhere
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    The point is that there can be no reconciliation if people and groups are being unfairly removed from the line. You can not just sweep an injustice under the carpet and say move on.

    Sometimes you have to take a stand.

    I think Elie Wiesel summed it up correctly in his Nobel Prize Speech:

    This goes for whether we are confront with the WSR, a playground bully or a political regime.


    I can accept that.

    This is one of the problems of anywhere after a conflict, how to move on, without forgetting, without recriminations, without excluding and coming together. It isn't easy. The scars take a very long time to heal. There is no perfect solution, amnesty and amnesia seems to just bottle up problems, exclusion just leads to a disaffected group outside the system who might then seek to destabilise the reconciliation process. If I had the answer I wouldn't be here (I would be out resolving conflicts around the world).
     
    jnc and Lplus like this.
  19. Greenway

    Greenway Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2008
    Messages:
    3,906
    Likes Received:
    3,704
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    South Hams
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Good to read a post, by Frank C, which puts another viewpoint here.
    Regarding the 'merger' of the two charities much has been posted on this thread. I simply say, to quote a country saying, is "that I can see through a five bar gate". Sadly many on the WSR are unable to or are looking at the walls either side of the gate!
     
    johnofwessex and 35B like this.
  20. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2011
    Messages:
    25,495
    Likes Received:
    23,734
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Grantham
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    There's much in that, but I'm not sure I regard the WSR as of sufficient importance to stand to judgement by Elie Wiesel. I also have concerns about the scars left by conflict - and hence the degree of reconciliation required. Without advocating amnesia (amnesty may have more to offer), I question how necessary it is to call people out for complicity, connivance or whatever. Make friends of them - @Ian Monkton is someone I've seen here and elsewhere advising very fairly and soberly on what is happening at the WSR - rather than force them down the road of being either an ally or a foe. You may just find that, when you actually need their support, they will come out of the woodwork and give you the force you need.
     
    jnc and flying scotsman123 like this.

Share This Page