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West Somerset Railway General Discussion

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by gwr4090, Nov 15, 2007.

  1. ikcdab

    ikcdab Member Friend

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    Julian, the form isn't strictly necessary, Just send the same info in an email.
    Ian
     
  2. D1002

    D1002 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Now you tell me;).
    When I applied, I actually went out and bought a printer!
     
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  3. ikcdab

    ikcdab Member Friend

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    Despite what you may read on here, we are a pretty easy going bunch...
    Ian
     
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  4. Bayard

    Bayard Well-Known Member

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    This is the favourite argument against any actual rule by the people in our so-called democracy, what if the people want something stupid or bad? Apart from the fact that the rulers in the current set-up have a very poor track record of avoiding doing things that are stupid or bad, that's the point of the rule by the people, the people make the decisions, whether they are good decisions or bad decisions. Yes, if "the same technique was adopted by those who aim to transform the railway into part of the national network with all the loss of heritage ambience that would inevitably involve" meant that the members of, firstly the WSSRT and, subsequently, the members of the WSRA and, following that, the shareholders of the Plc, all went along with the plan and voted that way at their respective AGMs, it would provoke howls of protest, but at least those protesting would have at least been consulted before the decision was made.
    As to the "organisations and people on whose continued confidence and support the railway depends" can you really put your hand on your heart and say that, outside of Nat Pres, the railway presents itself as a business that anyone would want to invest in or support?
     
  5. johnofwessex

    johnofwessex Resident of Nat Pres

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    I didnt have any trouble joining
     
  6. johnofwessex

    johnofwessex Resident of Nat Pres

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    Thats why you have a constitution, it restricts what those in power can do.

    It seems to me of course that the root cause of the current problems is how the governance arrangements for the WSR have been set up, more so that those who are doing the governing.
     
  7. Lineisclear

    Lineisclear Member

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    Well, at least one of them was quite content to stick within the remit of its charitable purposes and ought, if its members so wished, to be free to do so. Yes I know someone is bound to say that its members have the choice at their AGM to reject the merger idea. The problem with that is the sudden dramatic increase in its membership which looks like a cleverly orchestrated attempt to outvote the wishes of its traditional members. LL
    As to the other its charitable purposes are very limited. It could stick with those if it wished or it might decide to join the new charity. That will need far wider charitable objects including the ability to operate a railway. They would not be similar as you suggest.
    The difference is between an engineered merger and genuine choice.
    By the way I suggest ring fenced funds are a dreadful idea for heritage railways. Their business models mean they are always facing cashflow challenges over the close season. Having cash tied up in restricted funds is crazy when you need access to it to survive.
     
  8. flying scotsman123

    flying scotsman123 Resident of Nat Pres

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    So your suggestion is to allow the WSSRT to carry on as it is but the WSRA, with very similar charitable objects, should either cease to exist merging with the new charity or continue to exist, if it wanted to doing...? I'm sorry, but that sounds at least as messy as the current "plan" to me.

    Hmm, couldn't disagree more here. Restricted funds are important in maintaining donor trust, and there is absolutely nothing to say that a person happy to donate to a restricted fund for some GWR carriages would be happy to chuck money at a company just to pay its bills over the winter anyway. I thought it was pretty well accepted that people like donating to specific things, the psychology just works better.
     
  9. Greenway

    Greenway Part of the furniture

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    Ring fencing is fine when when times are financially good. But when they are not there is little point in having beautifully restored stock or structures if there is no line to run on or put them to good use.
    A prudent and cognisant treasurer may be worth his weight in gold. :D
    Many businesses, besides, heritage attractions, have had their doors closed with little or no income this year. Furlough arrangements have helped many, but others have struggled or ceased trading. I am sure any charity would welcome cash in hand rather than put aside. After all a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush! ;)
     
  10. 6960 Raveningham Hall

    6960 Raveningham Hall Member Friend

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    We’ve had plenty of references to the word ‘democracy’ from those wishing to become new Trustees of the WSSRT, but you have highlighted my greatest fear in the process. I’m another one who sees it as a ‘Trojan Horse’.
     
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  11. MellishR

    MellishR Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    That is a good illustration of the recently quoted "Never attribute to malice ...". One option is to print out the form and amend the wording. Another is to email the Secretary and say you wish to join. I understand that they currently issue neither membership numbers nor membership cards anyway, but presumably they keep accurate records of who have paid subscriptions.

    If restoring the WSR as part of the national network were both possible (maybe just) and economically viable (certainly not), it might be a difficult choice for some whether to support it as environmentally desirable, etc, or oppose it because they would prefer to go on "playing trains" as the Minehead advocates claim they do. But that would be a legitimate choice to be offered.

    As for confrontation, sadly that seems to be business as usual on the WSR.

    Your plan, or some variation thereof, may be good, but it needs to be implemented. It is not enough to publish vague expressions of agreement in principle, without steps to implement the plan and accompanied by slanging those who have a similar plan plus the intention to move things along as fast they can.

    Like others here I fail to understand why it would be better to set up a new charity first and then start thinking about what to do with the existing ones. A straightforward merger is not only simpler but will (if allowed to proceed) automatically preserve all the responsibilities and assets (including memberships and PLC shareholdings) of the existing charities.
     
  12. Bayard

    Bayard Well-Known Member

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    This appears to me to making the mistake of assuming that all donors are alike in their motives for giving a donation. The speed at which pledges and money were raised by 4110 Ltd shows that "everyone loves a loco". People were prepared to donate money to own a bit of a steam loco, which they wouldn't have donated in any other circumstances. Then, if they owned that loco, they'd find and raise more money for its restoration. There is not a fixed amount of money in the enthusiast community which, once donated, that's the end of it.
    The point is that the cash is not there for the railway to survive, that's why it's in a restricted fund, it's there to do what the donors donated it to do. If they thought it was just going to be appropriated by the business to spend on something completely different, something with which they might disagree, then they probably wouldn't have donated it in the first place. You might as well say that it's madness for a business to have money tied up in a pension fund when they need access to it to survive.
     
  13. Lineisclear

    Lineisclear Member

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    In an ideal cash abundant world perhaps but you still risk two things:
    1) your priorities can be set by fundraising, and;
    2) if priorities change or the chosen purpose cannot be achieved you end up with orphan funds.

    At the very least you need to include a provisions that, if necessary to maintain solvency the cash can be re purposed, and, if the original objective cannot be met for any reason, the cash can be used for the general purposes of the Charity etc. The Fundraising Code of Practice requires that appeals must state what will happen if donations are insufficient to achieve their intended purpose. The last thing you want is a restricted fund where the purposes are no longer achievable so the cash has to be paid back.. Organisations like the National Trust handle this well. if you read the small print it says something like " we'll try and use your donation for the purpose you gave it for but if we can't then we'll use to further the aims of the Trust"
     
  14. twr12

    twr12 Well-Known Member

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    I am wary of preserved railway directors who dislike restricted funds. They usually dislike saving up for loco overhauls too.

    That breed of Director likes to have all income go into one pot, so they can decide what it is spent on, as if it were there own money.
    There is also the danger of pet departments and projects being favoured over projects that may well be more essential.
     
  15. Lineisclear

    Lineisclear Member

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  16. martin1656

    martin1656 Nat Pres stalwart Friend

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    Surly isn't it down to the members wishes who they vote for, or do you only want people who think like you? i would be intrigued to hear what you think is the answer, to the railways problems, for instance, would you support only having one charity, on the line, and in that case, should the other groupings be part of it, is your issue the WSRA, or some of the people who are members of it and are standing for trustee ship , which as they are members are entitled to do, and sorry to say, but the skill set needed to reopen, and deal with the track etc, isnt going to be the same as might have been needed 2 years ago, I shan't lie, I don't think the chairman of the PLC, is the right person to lead you foreward, you need someone who can bring people together, can inspire them, unless its become an personality cult on the WSR.
     
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  17. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    If only it was that simple. The moment that you start running any train above 25 mph then the requirements of the Railway Safety Regulations 1999 kick in and TPWS and AWS is required, along with a requirement for all locomotives to be fitted with them, including visiting ones. Then there's the question of Mk.1 stock being banned, along with hinged doors although exemptions will probably be available from this part.
     
  18. Lineisclear

    Lineisclear Member

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    Their responsibility as whether as Directors or Trustees is to do just that. You can't hold them liable for the effective management of a company/charity and at the same direct them how to spend its resources.
    Creating "pots on money on the company mantlepiece" can create problems of compliance with accounting regulations. If the locomotive is an asset on the books depreciation will be charged against income to reflect its notional value. Charging a restricted sinking fund as well would, so I understand, be a breach of the regulations but any savvy accountants out there will no doubt correct me if I'm wrong. The normal procedure is to create a provision in the accounts . That's not cash but recognition of the existence of a financial liability.
    What should be done is to maintain a prudent level of cash reserves which many heritage lines struggle with as there are always so many attractive things to use the cash for.
    In any event if a company /charity does become insolvent restricted funds would go to its creditors.
     
  19. flying scotsman123

    flying scotsman123 Resident of Nat Pres

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    There's still presumably CDL to contend with though?

    Like everyone half way sensible says, it's a non-starter. If the WSR can't be a heritage railway the only other thing it can be is a cycle track.
     
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  20. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

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    I share your discomfort about the overuse of restricted funds and, having had to review how a (well stocked) church fabric fund related to a (depleted) general fund, agree with your view of how the priorities can be misaligned when times are tough.

    However, appeals and restricted funds also have their place within a structure, as a way of ensuring that (a) donors can focus their donations on specific aspects of the charity's work and (b) giving trust that the charity will support the full range of objectives. In the context of the WSR, whether achieved by merger of WSRA and WSSRT or their gradual disappearance into a new WSR charity, there are aspects of their work that I believe must be protected by ring fenced funds to ensure that there is confidence that those aspects (say the museums) will continue to be supported.

    What you praise in the NT, you seem to discount as an effective possibility in the railway context. Funds can be ring-fenced short of being a full restricted fund, giving trustees the ability to reprioritise in emergency, but done in such a way that those funds are recognised as discrete, not just buried in the general pot. In the church context, I'm familiar with there being ring-fenced funds that are not fully restricted; the moral authority is behind their use for the stated purpose, but it is not legally binding.
     

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