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West Somerset Railway General Discussion

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by gwr4090, Nov 15, 2007.

  1. Greenway

    Greenway Part of the furniture

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    It has been mentioned in the past that the WSR is a friendly place to be - yes, maybe for visitors - but this thread certainly gives an impression that that some areas of it certainly are not. The only groups that seem to harmoniously co-exist with each other appears to be the station groups as they just wnt to get on with things and are not interested in all the political manipulations. The appearance of most stations (other than the present track conditions) tend to prove that.
    If the line is such a fractious place to be you cannot help wonder why so many stay there.
    I suggest that truthfully it is probably a very pleasant place to be - just the continual unrest and position jockeying portrayed in this thread suggests otherwise.
    Big Al said it was a depressing read in recent pages, indeed it is.
    Continual gripes against the PLC, which change nothing, together with the suggestions of more litigation does nothing to pour oil on troubled waters, rather it seems to add fuel. Some of the WSR groups have already wasted far too much Membership money on individual cause litigation's I believe.
    If this is a portent of the future for the 'coming together' of a new WSR era then it is going to be a very steep hill to climb, at best, or at its worst no future 'peace in Somerset' as anticipated.
     
  2. Lineisclear

    Lineisclear Member

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    Andy,

    When I last checked the Public Interest Disclosure Act does not apply to voluntary workers. Have I missed something?
     
  3. Pete Thornhill

    Pete Thornhill Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Administrator Moderator Friend

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    Gilham vs Ministry of Justice 2019? The ruling there seemed to indicate the act did apply to volunteers I believe, happy to be corrected if wrong.
     
  4. QB Cook

    QB Cook Guest

    I respect you saying this Ian, but words are easy. Please outline exactly how you would undertake this task.
    Perhaps this might help.
    Printed voting cards sent to members by post, and for complete transparency, returnable to an authorised approved agency ( the Electoral Reform Society for example) who will oversee the receipt, counting and collation of the returned cards.
    Only 200 or so members........ not a titanic effort!
     
  5. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

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    Not sure, looking quickly at that case, that it would apply here - it seems very specific to judicial appointment and individuals' rights under human rights law. I'm not aware that @Andy Norman is laying claim that the actions of WSR plc infringe his human rights.
     
  6. flying scotsman123

    flying scotsman123 Resident of Nat Pres

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    It was specifically *not* specific (!) to judicial appointments, but could easily encompass trustees and directors of companies. Not sure that helps much either though.
     
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  7. irregulartrainman

    irregulartrainman New Member

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    Without wishing to derail the thread too much PIDA does not cover volunteers, Gilham vs Ministry of Justice 2019 confirmed that non-contractual office holders are within scope but has not yet been tested for volunteers on the same basis. Given that the appeal focussed on convention rights under Arts. 10 and 14, and following Ghaidan, it would be ripe for argument, although given it took some 9 years for the original case it may be some time yet.

    The EU's directive on whistle-blowing extends statutory protection to volunteers and explicitly notes that no longer making use of a volunteer's services is a form of retaliation, although its implementation end-date is not until the end of this year and at present is not intended to be adopted by the UK parliament. In particular they are awaiting until "sufficient evidence" is built by other member states on the success of the new whistle-blowing channels.
     
  8. Lineisclear

    Lineisclear Member

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    Could not have put it better!
     
  9. Mike S

    Mike S New Member

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    Not being funny but who cares what the PIDA does and doesn't say and what it does and does not cover.

    The extremely sad thing is that things get anywhere near to a point where someone has had to look to that for potential help in the first place.
     
  10. flying scotsman123

    flying scotsman123 Resident of Nat Pres

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    I was just about to say the same, once again we've got bogged down in legal technicalities to the detriment of the actual issue at hand.
     
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  11. Robin Moira White

    Robin Moira White Resident of Nat Pres

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    Then I am guessing you haven’t read the judgment of the Supreme Court in Gilham v Ministry of Justice ?

    Sorry about we lawyers Using case law to change the law just when folk thought they understood it.

    But in an effective safety culture, free disclosure should be encouraged, shouldn’t it?

    Robin
     
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  12. johnofwessex

    johnofwessex Resident of Nat Pres

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    More to the point there is clearly the option of the Protection from Harassment Act - which I dont pretend to be an expert on but is summarised thus

    The Protection from Harassment Act 1997 prohibits the pursuit of a “course of conduct which amounts to harassment of another”. Harassment is conduct that causes alarm or distress, and a course of conduct must involve such conduct on at least two occasions. The Act was originally introduced to deter stalkers but it also applies to workplace harassment.
     
  13. Robin Moira White

    Robin Moira White Resident of Nat Pres

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    I have advised on this more than once professionally already. I have little doubt what the finding would be if a volunteer were subject to detriment for whistleblowing under the Gilham analysis. Who would like to be the first organisation using volunteers that forms the test case?

    I haven’t done too badly in extending legal protection in the courts recently...

    Robin
     
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  14. Andy Norman

    Andy Norman Member

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    John

    It’s a very fair question. To add to Robin’s comments this is my opinion:

    The short answer is the WSR define their Volunteers as staff in a number of policies, rulebooks and I think the SMS as well, plus they specifically include Volunteers within the Whistle Blowing Policy and the PIDA rules which they align their Policy remit with the words:

    3. Who can use this policy?
    All members of staff, including volunteers, temporary and agency staff, as well as contractors working on the Railway may use this policy.



    But to be fair to you and to expand that thought a little it’s not that simple and you are right to question it because at first glance the act seems to exclude people called ‘Volunteers’. However the use of the word Volunteer may have two definitions which send some ‘volunteers’ in a different direction for Whistle Blowing protection under the Charities Commission and some down the legal route depending on how you define 'people completing a job for which they won’t be paid.'

    You are correct in saying the overarching principals of the act focus on paid workers because it acts to protect and compensate (financially) paid staff who are disadvantaged after making a disclosure about their work place/employer through the court system.

    However as always the devil is in the detail and it’s a complex environment which the WSR PLC as a ‘Commercial’ Company using volunteers as staff (their definition) doesn’t fit into the norm.

    As you say Volunteers are defined as not being covered in the PIDA in overview, but Volunteers are also defined as people working for a Charity for free, which is normally the case and the Charity Commission control as the watchdog not the legal system. However the WSR is different as is possibly lots of other heritage railways in using volunteers under the control of a non-charity operating company, a PLC in this case.

    Volunteers in the definitions used in the act (as I understand it) who are working for Charities should report their protected disclosures to the Charities Commission for them to take action against the Charity directly, not take legal action directly through the court system as an individual.

    The WSR has always been very clear, and it runs through the wording of a number of their HR Policy documents, Rulebooks and I believe the SMS as well in that Volunteers are defined as Staff. Further, the WSR Whistle Blowing Policy as you would expect also aligns itself with the PIDA and confirms the WSR will apply the PIDA in all cases (as it has to do legally as a PLC), and is very clear in that it includes Volunteers as covered under it (as above).

    This of course does raise a question and perhaps a contradiction as to how any Heritage Railway defines and supports its Volunteers? If Volunteers have a disclosure to make, do they make that to the Charities Commission who can’t do anything unless it’s a charity they are disclosing against thus potentially giving them no protection at all, or do you as the WSR have done include them within the PIDA as staff when they are working for the PLC?

    Personally I think it’s right that the PLC define their Volunteers as staff because it protects those staff within a commercial business in the same way as paid staff doing the same job. If they excluded Volunteers but included paid staff then it’s a questionable position for a court to decide if they were right to exclude or not. But ultimately it leaves a situation where a person working in an organisation has no recourse at all and can’t speak about issues, cultural or safety if you exclude them and it potentially undermines your H&S policy and your SMS, you can go around in many circles with this ?

    Clearly this needs some proper thinking and goes above my skill level to get right, Robin will no-doubt have a view and no-doubt your NYMR Policies have already cured this issue, so perhaps you can share what they define as being the correct way to go in order to support Volunteers and staff and keep everybody protected with the SMS & H&S operating well without a potential for safety issues not being reported through fear, etc. etc.

    Of course the easiest thing to do in the first place is just have a culture that allows people to express their views safely and openly and avoid anybody ever feeling they need to even open a policy and read it!!!!
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2020
  15. Pete Thornhill

    Pete Thornhill Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Administrator Moderator Friend

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    Thank you Robin, that was what I thought although I am far from a legal expert.

    I heard about the case via a voluntary organisation who updated their policies due to the result of this case.


    I agree it is extremely sad but this seems to be where we are at with the WSR situation. You could argue that this conversation wouldn’t be happening if the policies hadn’t been withdrawn in the first place.
     
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  16. Andy Norman

    Andy Norman Member

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    Now that's a good idea, stopping me from enjoying a hobby clearly effects my mental wellbeing and thus infringes my human rights in being able to gain enjoyment as a right :)
     
  17. fred

    fred New Member

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    Why does everything appear to be reduced to what is/is not legal ? The WSR supposedly consists of groups of people who have a common goal of keeping the railway open ( in theory at any rate ) so what happened to the comradeship of common purpose, basic morality and decency ?

    If it was legal to shoot chairmen would that make it morally right to do so ? Second thoughts - please don't answer that but you get the drift - it's not what is legal but what is right, fair and proper that counts.
     
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  18. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

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    Unfortunately, when people disagree, it is sometimes necessary to revert back to questions of law as the ultimate backstop. Personally, my preference would be that the hint of needing to consider the law would act as a warning bell, but as this thread shows, something stronger than hints seems necessary.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
     
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  19. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Am I the only one thinking that statement suggests a most interesting Venn diagram? To see what I'm babbling on about this time, for 'WSR', substitute your choice of any number of organisations or structures (beyond those merely heritage related ones) reliant on cooperation of disparate interests.
     
  20. fred

    fred New Member

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    The law cannot solve the current problems. The law actually only creates winners and losers - and the losers will look for ways to seek revenge and perpetuate the ongoing rivalries.
    The problem can only be solved by people working together and setting aside old differences.
     

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