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West Somerset Railway General Discussion

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by gwr4090, Nov 15, 2007.

  1. Robin Moira White

    Robin Moira White Resident of Nat Pres

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    Sigh! Where to begin?

    It’s broken. We need to fix it. We know what it should look like.

    Either:

    (A) We can work together to collectively knock what we have into shape in a way we can all live with, having properly discussed it beforehand. Not expensive. Relatively quick.

    Or

    (B) One of us can go off and buy an expensive aftermarket part that takes ages to arrive in the hopes that: (1) the rest find it acceptable; and (2) it does the job.

    Let’s choose...

    Robin
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2020
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  2. jnc

    jnc Well-Known Member

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    Anyone who's in heritage rail for 'power' has seriously lost the plot before they've even got started. Being in a management role should be a burden, which one assumes as a form of donation, and thus willingly puts down.

    Noel
     
  3. Downline

    Downline New Member

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    Im struggling to find these "most vile vitriole" you refer to, which I assume you are referring to on the two posts regarding the resignations (sorry, I have not had the time, nor want to waste time scrolling through several pages to catch up).

    If my above assumption is correct, you view these comments as the "the most vile vitriole" made predominantly by questionable volunteers, I view them as comments of good wishes to the two resigning trustees and upset that they feel that they have been bullied that much that it has forced them to resign, made by hard working volunteers

    You feel your threats of police action/criminal prosecution (or whatever you want to call it) is justifiable, trustees of the WSSRT feel the comments and actions as quite bullying.

    A trend occurring I feel. Whilst the actions of 'the ten' MAY be with a good overall intention, the way your going about it appears to be causing a serious rift between the people who really have the WSR at heart, the ones that turn up once, twice (or more) a week to do all them fun jobs that

    I understand from people who have regularly turned up to the railway in all weathers since activities were allowed to recommence on the railway earlier this year, none of the 10 have been seen on the railway much other than when there is alot of cameras to be seen. Funny that... Why don't 'the 10' leave there keyboards for a few days, head down to the railway, get involved in some of the activities going on like weeding, coach painting, PWay works, etc etc... and actually see what the volunteers want, instead of preaching from behind computer keyboards about what they think volunteers want. 10 people who are not all volunteers, cant represent the collective views of 1000 odd volunteers can they?
     
  4. Andy Norman

    Andy Norman Member

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    One thing strikes me looking at the various arguments for Plan PLC and Plan Rebel Alliance (I really must come up with more neutral words). The debate about the practicalities and ease are being talked about in subjective terms only with very little in the way of supporting facts from either side, this is of course mixed in with some deep seated and long running rivalries which are just distracting and divisive and are only leading to deeper bunkers.

    So perhaps its time to cut to the chase, which plan in the real world would work ? Maybe one starting point is the costs of getting the WSR from today to a sustainable position in say 3 years’ time ?
    • The PLC have said a 3rd Charity will cost a 6 figure sum so that could be from £100k to £999k but how much within a sensible margin for error is that ?
    • The PLC have said if the 3rd Charity is to be viable it has to also buy the Freehold from SCC something, that SCC have rejected twice in the last year and said it won’t do unless its triple lock is reached. But putting that aside for a moment, how much is that going to cost in purchase price and legal fees ?
    • The PLC said it needed to buy the freehold to borrow against it, so I guess that’s the purchase costs above, plus money for inward future investment, so how much is that?
    • Plan RA takes a cheaper route to meagre the two Charities, but how much is that ?
    • Plan RA says it will focus on large scale grant funding money to support the farebox. But how much is that (I can answer that of course but it needs asking of Team RA so they commit to something) ?
    • Plan RA uses the existing resources, funds and assets of two existing Charities, including land of over 33 acres. Plan PLC doesn’t guarantee that will be included if the WSSRT split off into a ‘non-WSR Charity’, on-site aka DEPG or off-site altogether aka S&DRT, and if the WSRA Members don’t vote to give all they have to the 3rd Charity (forget shares as they will disappear anyway under Plan PLC so have no value). So what is that in true physical value and borrowing ability of the two current Charities assets?
    • Each plan is likely to include borrowing money, how much and what would the repayments be, and how much debt is the WSR capable of carrying in a sustainable manner?
    Would it not be good for both sides to set out a full 5 year business plan for everybody to see, there are no secrets here so nothing need be ‘redacted’ and of course both sides must have them already prepared to a high level of detail as nobody from either side would have progressed their plans to this level unless they knew as far as is possible how the figures stack up?

    If both start from where the WSR is financially today, take the farebox as a snap shot of 2019 as a benchmark for 2021/2/3 and then cost out the costs and incomes of an operating WSR from March 2021 profit & loss wise, roll in the costs of taking their plans to completion and then funding the WSR for say 2 years of internal investment to bring its current unsustainable level with track & infrastructure broken to a mostly fixed and sustainable condition.

    That might then allow some sensible debate, one or both plans might have flaws where the numbers just don’t stack up so there maybe no need for any further fighting as it maybe one plan is unaffordable, or it might even show that there needs to be an agreed hybrid of the two.

    Nat Pres would be a great place for both sides to work these plans up and get the flaws knocked out before going to their members/shareholders for a vote because in my opinion there are many very sensible people on here from the wider railway community with valid input who could help in an open and transparent way.

    Perhaps then this would side step WSR Wars with grown up facts, because facts are difficult to argue with, whilst emotions can only be subjective. Perhaps then we could start to not only work together within the WSR but also work together with the rest of the heritage railway sector as well.

    Or we could just carry on knocking lumps out of each other as the post above does, again.

    EDIT: I just remembered John Bailey stated on here the WSR needs an immediate £3 Million cash injection: post #32932 . What is that for as it was a bit of a surprise to most of us, so that also needs putting into the plans.
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2020
  5. martin1656

    martin1656 Nat Pres stalwart Friend

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    1 : Given the implied threats against the ten, will they be safe from harm if they attended to Volunteer?
    2: will they be allowed on site to begin with, there has been calls to strip them of their PLC cards
    3: how do you know they are not doing other work away from Minehead, ?
    If I were in their shoes, i would not wish to endanger myself, or be put in any danger of being drawn into any other persons plotting, if they were trying to create an problem, whereby I could have my card removed.
    did you not read the postings demanding the ten be removed, banned from the railway? it was on that same page, posted by people who support the current leadership of the railway plc, , but banned for what? anyone who is a member, and many, if not all of the ten, are long standing members of the WSSRT, can stand for trusteeship , same as any shareholder can be elected to the board of the PLC.
    Whats needed now is for the members of the trust to be able to cast their votes , without any pressure being exerted by outside organisations, for the people they feel will serve them best, and protect the charity's aims ,
     
  6. Monkey Magic

    Monkey Magic Part of the furniture

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    What I find odd is that @Lineisclear is constantly banging on about 'Peaceful Somerset' and how the plans of the 10 won't lead to a peaceful Somerset. Others have raised the issue as to how the 10 will deal with the dispossessed. The 10 have offered at least some way forward with dealing with this problem. I see nothing from John Bailey on this issue. Moreover, his plan would lead to the domination of a group of people whose attitude towards dissent is personal attacks in media (social and traditional), the withdrawal of ID cards, eviction and vitriol. It appears to me that by backing a group of people who have a track record of such actions is an endorsement of dealing with dissent like this.

    So I am really puzzled, does John Bailey think defenestrating dissenters and dispossessed is the way to a peaceful Somerset, or does he believe that if his mates get their way they will have a Pauline conversion to collegiality when dealing with the dispossessed or dissenters with them? Or is it 'we are the masters now' suck it up or leave?
     
  7. D1002

    D1002 Resident of Nat Pres

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    In an effort to ‘reset’ the debate I asked a question in post #34040 (Crewkerne to satisfy @Big Al) and I still haven’t received a reply. Would you or another member of your supporters care to respond?
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2020
  8. fred

    fred New Member

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    Since the WSR does not currently appear to be complying with the rules / regulations of HRA membership it puzzles me as to why it's membership hasn't been suspended rather than being supported and praised for its current position. I did ask about this some time ago with a link to the HRA rules but never received a sensible reply. In my opinion the HRA are in danger of putting themselves in disrepute with possible contagion of undermining the efforts of other Heritage railways.
     
  9. johnofwessex

    johnofwessex Resident of Nat Pres

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    Whatever happens, may I suggest that as soon as possible the WSSRT & the WSRA make a joint approach to the PLC, both as representatives of their members and as major shareholders requesting the immediate reinstatement of the HR policies, in particular the bullying & harassment policy.
     
  10. RailWest

    RailWest Part of the furniture

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    Likewise.
     
  11. johnofwessex

    johnofwessex Resident of Nat Pres

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    Question.

    Under the Rebel Alliance plan the combined shareholding of the two charities is sufficient to grant them de-facto control of the PLC and the merged charity is composed by its members

    Under Bailey the Charity controls the PLC (?) who controls the charity, is it a member controlled organisation or what?
     
  12. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    As I understand it (but who knows in Somerset?) the end result is the same either way - a membership charity that has 100% ownership of an operating subsidiary. So the difference is basically how to get to that same point.

    Edit to add: that means, as far as I can see, that even with a merger, that is just one step on the way: the plc would have to be restructured with a way found to compensate shareholders for their loss of shares (for example swapping shares for membership of the new charity). Or the plc becomes moribund and a new operating subsidiary is formed, but that means transfer of operating licence, lease etc. A merger of the WSSRT and WSRA is therefore a step along one possible path, not an end goal.

    Tom
     
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  13. Robin Moira White

    Robin Moira White Resident of Nat Pres

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    David

    We will. An answer is in draft being circulated amongst the 12 for comment and it will then be posted. One or two of us are having a busy Sunday and we will get you an answer ASAP.

    Robin
     
  14. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    The biggest difficulty I can see with the “clean break”, new charity plan, as far as I can see, is that it leaves the future of WSSRT and WSRA unclear. It seems inconceivable to me that either of them could have a continued stable existence on the railway shorn of their current role as, in the case of the WSRA, the de-facto membership body on the railway (ie, who you join if you want to “join the West Somerset Railway”); and in the case of the WSSRT, being the primary museum body. Both also own significant amounts of rolling stock.

    The new charity plan would have more credibility in my eyes if it was clear what it’s proponents saw as the future of the existing charities once shorn of their role on the railway.

    But gosh, the incessant fighting is an unedifying spectacle!

    Tom
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2020
  15. gwilialan

    gwilialan Well-Known Member

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    Just come back from a few days away to find the WSSRT AGM paperwork on my door mat. I'm not sure if what follows has already been discussed, I didn't notice anything in my (very quick) scan of the last dozen or so pages so...

    Looking at the AGM paperwork brought the immediate thought of... Oh Come on WSSRT Trustees, don’t you ever stop twisting facts? And now even trying to mislead your own members? If you can’t start behaving like senior managers should you will lose what little sympathy I have left for you.


    Comments on the papers…

    Notice of Meeting.

    Page 2, Item 6: “Nomination of New Proposed Directors and Trustees”
    Quote: “…They have refused to participate in an interview and appointment process via the Board. Their nominations are therefore not supported…”

    What has been conveniently forgotten is that they are not required to participate in an interview or any other appointment process when proposed at an AGM. This interview requirement is a twisted interpretation of the Charity Commissions guidance to be used when the current Board is seeking to recruit new members.

    Next:
    Page 3, First paragraph: “Members should note that the current Board of Trustees is already directly and fully engaged in the work to restructure the WSR.”

    Compare this with:-

    Chairman’s report, second page, first paragraph: “We want to remain independent, focussed on the work we do in the museums, in education and with carriage restoration, so even after the Bailey report is implemented, we would see the Trust continuing to do its good work separately ….”

    So what have you to do with the restructuring of the WSR if you are just going to sit on the sidelines and not form part of the revised structure? You can’t have it both ways, be involved in the restructure and yet stay independent.

    Proxy paper

    Item 7.i) “Adoption of Agenda item 7 a) Steam Trust to be adsorbed into new WSR single charity…”

    That is simply NOT what members are voting about and bears no relation to the actual proposal on page 2 of the Notice of Meeting. I think this is a disgraceful misinterpretation of the actual proposal.

    Chairman’s report,

    Second page,
    Fourth paragraph: “We also think that a total of 20 trustees is far too large to run a charity of this size…“
    Fifth paragraph: “Also listed for your support are the names of our four new excellent trustees...”

    So more is OK if you propose them???

    And yet more comments about how terrible these people are for standing for the Board without telling us, etc, etc, etc

    This has degraded into the realms of a juvenile playground spat. No one comes out of this showing any composure or integrity.

    And finally: Can someone please tell me if there are to be ten member proposed candidates? I think I hear there could actually be 11 or 12 if the arguments over eligibility ever end. So what happens if it is deemed they are eligible? Do I wait for yet another proxy voting slip?
     
  16. flying scotsman123

    flying scotsman123 Resident of Nat Pres

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    I think it is to be welcomed that the 10 candidates' policy has evolved from a simple demand to merge wit the WSRA, to the WSSRT becoming a part of the new single charity. It feels to me like it fits better with the direction of travel on the Plc side whereby they envisage a new single charity being set up. So the argument is now not whether the WSSRT merge with the WSRA or not, which is quite binary, to whether the WSSRT is to be a part of the new WSR structure, or be a relic of a past, worse time, an anomaly which could potentially lead to further acrimony down the line.
     
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  17. Greenway

    Greenway Part of the furniture

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    Will any plan formulated work? I have strong reservations as this thread suggests there seems to be far too many ingredients and cooks involved in the WSR stew.
    I do not subscribe to F/Book but have looked at three or four WSR orientated F/B pages and saw little that could be described as vile or vitriolic. There are some posts here that qualify more so. Those against Lineisclear are far stronger than anything I have seen on F/Book, besides threatening old gentlemen, who have spent a lot of their lives volunteering on the WSR, with police and legal action is hardly friendly.
     
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  18. gwilialan

    gwilialan Well-Known Member

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    The WSSRT representatives have repeatedly said they want no part in the overall management in any 'new' structure. They want to be standalone like D&EPG etc. which I have no problem with at all. Whether they continue to do standalone fundraising or join any new overall charity's fundraising 'group' would be another decision for the members.

    So what's the problem everyone seems to have? I can't see what all the shouting is about... except for the Plc shares... but if the Plc is to be a wholly owned subsidiary of the overall charity then those shares become irrelevant - don't they?
     
  19. Greenway

    Greenway Part of the furniture

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    Curiously this particular comment, particularly the part I have highlighted. received little, if any comment. (other than 'likes') But it may be pertinent as far as I see.
     
  20. toplight

    toplight Well-Known Member

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    I don't think it is a great idea merging the wsra and wssrt. I can't see how it would make much difference to the in fighting and the only benefit seems to be the arguement that it would make it easier to obtain grants with having just one charity. Plenty of other steam lines have more than one charity so it isn't unusual.

    The museum activities that the Wssrt looks after could be blended into a combined charity probably quite easily but for the heritage coaches that need restoration it would be a disaster. You would get a situation where a majority of the trustees of a combined charity would have no interest in them. No focus on them and funds always diverted into the bread and butter day to day operations plus other unrelated projects.

    If those coaches are ever to be restored it needs individuals and an organisation to be dedicated solely to them or they will just never get done.

    If they don't get done, you would get trustees then turning against them and using terms like linear scrapyard to justify scrapping or disposing of them.

    Why not keep the wsra as it is to focus on the line itself and the museum's and the keep the wssrt to focus solely on historic coaches/wagons then you get rid of any perceived overlap between the two. You could change its name to make it more obvious what the purpose was.

    The Severn valley has the Gw (SVR) Association which has restored nearly all their Gw coaches. They complete another one around every 4 years. The Wssrt could be developed into the Wsr equivalent and build a team to do it.
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2020

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