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Bulleid Pacifics - Past or Present

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by 34007, May 13, 2008.

  1. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    I’m fairly certain it wouldn’t. The NYMR have Network Rail exemption from it for the Esk Valley line only. TPWS is a legal requirement and NR can’t exempt that. AWS is also required, as is GSMR.
     
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  2. Johnb

    Johnb Nat Pres stalwart

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    Although it’s a requirement I don’t think a failure of GSMR equipment out on the line is considered safety critical and the loco can finish its duty.
     
  3. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    If the GSMR fails the loco/train cannot start a journey. If you become aware that it has failed on the journey you must stop the train and inform the signaller by whatever means available (SPT /mobile/etc) You must not move the train until instructed to do so, which may or may not be permission to complete the journey without an operative radio.
     
  4. Johnb

    Johnb Nat Pres stalwart

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    Near enough what I thought, it doesn’t mean a relief loco had to be provided
     
  5. torgormaig

    torgormaig Part of the furniture Friend

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    I don't think it means that at all John. You may get permission to go forward to clear the line, but once you are out of the way of other traffic you would probably have to stay where you are until a suitable radio is sourced. That may or may not involve another locomotive.

    Peter
     
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  6. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    Having been (rightly) corrected in the GSN thread on a few Bulleid things, I am writing to ask my fellow Bulleid enthusiasts - what should I be reading?

    I have been toying with the idea of doing a book on Bulleid after finishing my [censored] [censored] book and I realise now that I have been guilty of making some assumptions where there's actually better evidence elsewhere.

    So - what books or publications should I be looking at? Any suggestions?
     
  7. Sheff

    Sheff Resident of Nat Pres

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    I found Winkworth very good.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  8. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    Probably the best books are the old ones - i.e. second hand - written at around the time of the end of steam by people with the knowledge.
    1. I expect that you already have 'British Pacific Locomotives' by CJ Allen that gives a good overview of all the big stuff from all regions - first published around 1962. The section on the Bulleids is a good start.
    2. There is also the DW Winkworth book from 1974 entitled Bulleid's Pacifics. You may wish not to read the performance section but, again, the history in the first section is pretty comprehensive.
    3. If you can get it for the technical data then try to get hold of Bulletin No. 20 from the British Transport Commission that is an analysis of the performance and efficiency of 35020 Bibby Line soon after it was rebuilt in 1958.
    The last one nails to the floor what amateurs have said for some time about the class as a whole. As built it was an imaginative design with characteristic free steaming and fast running qualities but inefficiencies and high maintenance costs. As rebuilt, the class lost none of the qualities - although some would say the design was less distinctive - but gained in operating and maintenance benefits. It also looked good but in a different way from its forerunner, of course.

    But I would say that wouldn't I? :)
     
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  9. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Winkworth is good; also HAV Bulleid's book "Bulleid of the Southern" is very good on the design genesis and thought process of all the Bulleid designs.

    DL Bradley - the RCTS guide of Southern Locomotives, you need Volume 2 for Bulleid. It is very good on the minutiae of dates, detail changes etc. One thing very notable is that - having read all the relevant books he wrote on LCDR / SER / LBSC / LSWR / S&DJR / Isle of Wight / SR loco history - he is very even-handed and impartial throughout - except for Bulleid, where he completely allows his personal views on the locos to shine through. (The TL,DR is he really wasn't a fan of them in original condition, but a complete convert to them as rebuilt, especially the Merchant Navies).

    I've got a private paper written by the late Tony Deller on the steam reversers fitted, which completely transformed my thinking about that particular issue, which is one that would loom large in any discussion of the Pacific's. The issue is generally completely misunderstood by most modern writers and lay enthusiasts, it seems, based on erroneous information that has come into the popular imagination and gets represented as fact (such as the frequently asserted "he should have used the Ashford rather than the Eastleigh reverser" fallacy).

    Tom
     
  10. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    I agree that the reverser comment is overdone. The fact that under test at Rugby it 'crept' on any setting meant that drivers had to listen to what the loco was telling them - something that the best drivers did anyway - rather than rely on the setting. You can understand why that wasn't the kind of thing that was particularly helpful.
     
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  11. torgormaig

    torgormaig Part of the furniture Friend

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    One reference that you cannot do without is D.L.Bradley's Locomotives of the Southern Railway Part 2 (RCTS 1976) - a mine of detail and minutiae for all things pertaining to the Pacifics. I'm sure that Tom (@Jamessquared) would agree.

    Peter

    Oh! - I see that he's already done it.
     
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  12. Johnb

    Johnb Nat Pres stalwart

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    Bulleid Pacifics at Work, Col Rogers. The Book of the MNs and The Book of the WCs &BBs, both Irwell Press go into a lot of detail and works visits, allocations etc
     
  13. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    I remain incredibly wary of Colonel Rogers books after my work on Thompson. Is his book on the Bulleids impartially written?
     
  14. huochemi

    huochemi Part of the furniture

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    Bulleid's paper to the ILocoE 1946
    Burrows and Wallace' paper to the ILocoE in 1958 on the steel fireboxes
    BR P&E Test on 35022 at Rugby 1953 / 1954

    I can send you copies of all those if you are interested. Other papers touch on them e.g. Cox's paper on balancing. Presumably there is some official material on the 1948 loco exchanges somewhere.

    From comments on the GSN thread, there is other official material available, although I don't know how easy to get hold of. Presumably there is some internal BR correspondence on the rebuilding proposal somewhere.

    There are lots of drawings available at Search Engine although they are quite pricey of course. The TNA says that there is a R G Jarvis collection at Search Engine although a Search Engine search does not turn it up. However, it seems to consist only of a lantern slide presentation. It would be worth having a search in TNA as the may be some less intuitively named files. Search Engine has some of Holcroft's papers including correspondence with Bulleid.

    The article on the MN rebuild in the Locomotive Magazine for February 1956 says the designs were prepared at Brighton under the direction of H H Swift, CM&EE, Southern Region and R C Bond, CME BTC, so they could be further lines of search (Bond has a published autobiography of course. )
     
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  15. Johnb

    Johnb Nat Pres stalwart

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    I think so and there are a few good drawings in it
     
  16. 8126

    8126 Member

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    I think his book on the Bulleids holds up fairly well. Like Bradley, he's a rebuilds man, but not to the extent of denying the strengths of the originals. S.C. Townroe seems to have been his primary source on the operational side, and Townroe was sufficiently un-enamoured of the original Pacifics that he arranged to have all the Nelsons transferred into his allocation at Eastleigh, so he didn't have to take any except on works running in turns.

    I also agree with the praise for Winkworth, who being closer to the time seems to have caught more of the actual reasons for things (like the reduction in boiler pressure) than some later authors. The writing on the exchanges is also interesting. I think it's generally understood that the Pacifics performed well but at the cost of high fuel consumption, but Winkworth emphasises just how consistent their high performance was. There is one particularly glorious line: "It would be nice to think that the railway authorities could persuade a passenger on the Marylebone-Manchester route, for example, to agree that his arrival 25 minutes late behind a class 5 engine was of more merit than a one minute early arrival behind West Country 34006 because the fuel consumption had not been so great! Yet this is the implication in the report." He's more sympathetic to the originals than Bradley or Rogers, with his general take being that in the case of the MNs it was honours even, and with the Lights the advantages of the rebuild were not worth the compromise in route availability.

    (Incidentally, if I ever go to town on researching anything, it will be the "The rebuilds had lower route availability because of hammer blow" story. I'm 90% sure it's not true, they were just heavier. What they did have was fully balanced crank axles, but rotating (as opposed to reciprocating) balance doesn't have to cause hammer blow, and the distribution of the balance weights suggests it didn't.)

    Finally, for mileages, works visits, allocations etc the pair of "The book of the Merchant Navy Pacifics/WC & BoB Pacifics" by Richard Derry are useful starting references. Some interesting little nuggets, like 35008 going nearly 120000 miles between rebuilding and its next works visit, and 35007 having no general overhaul between rebuilding in 1958 and withdrawal in 1967, half a million miles later.
     
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  17. 8126

    8126 Member

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    Oh, and for the full Bulleid experience, there's also "Leader: Steam's Last Chance" by Kevin Robertson. Pretty much the only comprehensive book on the whole project I know of; I always think that the traits that led to Bulleid creating Leader were exactly the same ones that led to the excellent Pacific boilers, the lightweight wheels, the neat and simple attachment of tyres, the early and justified enthusiasm for welding, everything he got right as well as the things he got wrong.
     
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  18. Matt37401

    Matt37401 Nat Pres stalwart

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    I’d recommend ‘Winston Churchill and the Bulleid Pacific’s’ By the NRM, not the most comprehensive of books but it also touch’s on a few other bits and pieces as well.
    Need to get my copy back from my Dad!
     
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  19. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    I'll be in touch separately regarding the papers. The R G Jarvis collection is of interest, when I went through the Thompson one I found some remarkable things out. The NRM's archives a treasure trove, that is for certain.
     
  20. Johnb

    Johnb Nat Pres stalwart

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    Don’t forget there is a wealth of Bulleid knowledge at Stewarts Lane on working party days
     
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