Isle of Wight Steam Railway

Do you mean Peter Drummonds 2-6-0s of the G&SWR? Don't remember his brother Dugald designing any 2-6-0s

 

Well we don't have any Scottish locos on the IWSR however we did once buy a carriage underframe from Brechin!

 

https://iwsteamrailway.co.uk/heritage/our-rolling-stock/locomotives/ajax/ !!

Tom

 

OK Tom

You got me there!

I guess that Army 235 is also Scottish!

We could possibly do a better job of acknowledging the builder in both cases.

 

I suspect that @JMJR1000 meant the 4-6-0's. Truly awful, bar the Paddleboxes, which could just about cut it. A mystery to me that Mr. Jones at Lochgorm got it right first time, and so many others got it so wrong.
Good to see W24 back in service again. It struck me recently (and I expect you all worked this out years ago!) that W24 and W31 were the last LSWR engines in service, having outlasted everything from Messrs. Drummond, Urie and Maunsell (and nearly seeing out Southern steam altogether). Mr. Adams had something about him which doesn't get much acknowledgement (instead people confuse him with William Bridges Adams).
Pat

 

A bit far north for you, but what about Camden's Rebuilt Royal Scots?

What about Urie's rebuild of the Drummond 4-6-0s?

From this



to this

 

That latter is really an accountancy job - not much Drummond left in it by the end! (Thankfully).

Tom

 

At the risk of continuing this off-topic diversion: the M7s were really pretty average things for their time. A later study by the SR showed they were both more expensive per mile to run and to repair than their Adams predecessors (and both of the were in turn more expensive on both counts than the Wainwright H and Kirtley R). The T9’s reputation was really only made when they were superheated by Urie and the impedimentia like firebox cross water tubes removed. The Black Motors were similarly improved by superheating, before which they were largely indistinguishable from locos 15 years older.

The D15s were OK, but given the lateness of their construction, probably not a match for a SECR L class 4-4-0 from the same time.

Most of the other 4-4-0s were at best pedestrian; and the 4-6-0s universally poor.

The development of Eastleigh and move from Nine Elms was a triumph in planning and should stand as Drummond greatest triumph on the LSWR. But as a locomotive designer, at best he carried on building locos that were hardly an advance on what he had been building in Scotland years before; and where he did try to innovate, he got things consistently very wrong.

I agree with @Dunfanaghy Road that Adams is underrated: had his locomotives not been so good, the LSWR might have had significant motive power issues before World War I. It is interesting that at Ashford, Wainwright built replacement boilers for Stirling locos that gave them a new lease of life; whereas when Drummond built replacement boilers for Adams locos, they generally ended up performing worse.

Drummond is overdue a reassessment in my view. His reputation as a locomotive designer seems to be based on early work on the NBR (the Abbotsford 4-4-0s were genuinely pioneering), combined with an Indian Summer of running of the T9s - in modified form - on the Withered Arm through the 1950s and early 1960s. But in between he somewhat ossified in design terms, or else got sidelined by a sequence of innovations that almost invariably failed to produce the efficiencies he desired. Urie came from a shops background, and promptly swept away most of those innovations as rapidly as he could, in the process forming half the template for what became the ultimate development of steam locomotives in this country.

Tom

 

Drummond's personality maybe tends to obscure an objective critical re-assessment of his design work.

 

I think there is little doubt that Drummond was at the top of his game as a 40-something on the Caledonian in the 1880s and was later very "hit and miss" facing the 20th Century on the LSWR.

Meanwhile, if you were looking for a small air-braked engine suitable for the IoW, Mr Drummond's Scottish Catalogue offers a choice of either the bogie in front:
https://www.lner.info/locos/D/d51.php

Or the bogie at the back:

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/b4/67/cc/b467cc1422c6f1a206f97f7f23a82351.jpg
https://c8.alamy.com/comp/PGF5YE/drummond-caledonian-railway-171-class-0-4-4t-no223-PGF5YE.jpg
http://www.albarailwaymodels.co.uk/171.html

 

It would seem then that Drummond is a man better to be known for his planning in changing up the works then his locomotives on the LSWR, pity we don't have more Adams design locos about, but arguably more of them have survived then the Drummonds.

I'd still say though that on looks alone, some of Drummond's engines were good lookers.

(Edit: Got rid of a remark I said of the 700 Class as I forget their nickname was Black Motors, so my point was irrelevant about them.)

 

I wonder if Ajax will ever run at the IOWSR again.

There are the Island locos - W2(sort of), W8,W11 & W24. The work horses - Ivatts & Austerities, and the old faithful - Invincible which has been at the IOWSR since day 1 and kept the railway running for a few years as their only working steam loco.

It’s hard to see what gap Ajax fills and how it will ever become a priority for overhaul. However it is a popular exhibit in train story, allowing visitors on to the footplate.

 

If it doesn't run again it would seem to be something of a waste of the new firebox fitted at its last overhaul.

 

At risk of going even more off topic but lines like the NYMR and SVR have/are overhauled/overhauling the likes of Lucie and Warwickshire which aren’t exactly ideal for day to day use on their respective lines, I’m sure those in charge at Haven Street will have some sort of plan for it.

 

'Ajax' does seem to be the odd one out on the IoWSR, yet I too hope it will return to steam one day. Not sure for certain, but wasn't it said somewhere that Ajax was not so popular these days due to it being rougher with the coaches maybe? Sure I heard/read that somewhere, perhaps not.

One loco that most certainly won't return to steam on the IoWSR is Austerity 'Juno', as it's unique in having been left untouched sine withdrawal, and that would seem to be the condition they wish to keep it in now displayed at Shildon.

 

Yes it is rather rough with the coaches, it has a very pronounced fore and aft motion. Apparently on the footplate it seems that you are going in all directions at the same time. It however has bags of character and would pull anything that you put behind it.

 

In their strategic vision document, the IOWSR do mention potentially selling non island locos if no longer required. Ajax would seem the most likely candidate if this did happen, but who knows, maybe there are plans for its further use.

I believe Juno is regarded as something of a strategic reserve loco. It might come into play if some disaster befell Waggoner, Royal Engineer or one of the Ivatts. Meanwhile it can stay safely and securely tucked up in Shildon.

 

Wasn't the problem with Ajax it's habit of pulling and pushing through the drawbar, so making the ride in the coaches uncomfortable, prehaps at the next overhaul something can be done to eliminate it? i believe that it's a strong loco, and powerful, more so than 24, but with the addition of the Ivatts and Austeries, there is now enough cover for the larger engines. i wonder if she might go on loan to Cranmore under a restore and use agreement same as the 2mt

 

I see, I wonder if anything can be done to modify it somehow to lessen this pronounced fore and aft motion?

Good grief, what on earth kind of disaster could they possibly foresee happening that requires Juno as a strategic reserve!

That's a possibility but I don't think the ESR would have much use for it seeing as they've got plenty enough engines arguably, perhaps another railway though might have some interest in it.

 

One thing I'm most certainly hoping for this year during the 50th anniversary, is for the IoWSR to announce their finally making a start in overhauling E1 'Yarmouth', as it's something I feel that so many (myself included) have long looked forward to yet heard little to nothing on the matter since the engine arrived on the island. Certainly, while of course happy it is in secure hands and well cared for in their museum, I hope to hear something on the matter at some point in the near future.

It's a tad depressing to think really that next year will be a certain other but perhaps less grand anniversary, 10 years since the E1 arrived with much fanfare for a new future on the IoWSR... Not quite an anniversary I thought I would have to be thinking on in such a manner, having thought instead we'd be celebrating such a milestone with the engine actually in steam by now. But hey ho~.

I'll be looking forward to the day we can see the E1 running again, on a railway I've no doubt it'll be well at home on and useful, whenever that day may be...

(Edit: At least one other thing we can be excited for this year, is hopefully seeing the Ryde Pier Tram in action, as work on it is meant to be finished sometime this year from what I understand. Of course recent world events may have delayed it's progress somewhat...)