Isle of Wight Steam Railway

When I volunteered there they were keen to restore said set, bantering about lottery money. But they did imply they might not bother having a full pull-push system and just run-round, as the chap I talked too said they didn't think they be allowed to use it these days it by Rail Board...

 

I seem remember reading somewhere (probably one of the once upon a line books) that they were generally crewed by "passed firemen"?

 

NO, They were always crewed by "passed firemen, the reason being (as already discussed ) if the equipment was to fail in push mode, the fireman would also have to operate the regulator and reverser in an emergency, as well as firing, working the injectors.
What I have been told by former steam men was that nine times out of ten this was the case!

 

Don't encourage them Tom - once they have the M7 and coaches kitted out, they'll be after the only other surviving Southern Push and Pull tank (Terriers and Ps excepted) and you wouldn't want that.

Peter

 

Don’t mention those, before too long we’ll have someone thinking it’s a good idea.

 

Oddly enough a photo of her turned up today in her push-pull days. I wonder what happened to all the kit when she was withdrawn?



Tom

 

So true, much like the IoWSR, the KESR just wouldn't be right without the distinctive bark of the Terriers being heard somewhere along the line.

Funny thing is years back I used to much more a LNER fan, and generally of the bigger engines like Flying Scotsman and Mallard. Still hold a fondness for the LNER mind you, but over the years in maturity, I came to grow more fond and fascinated in the Southern Railway and the pre-grouping companies that made it. The engines down south just had a certain charm about them, especially the older and smaller ones, and as the Southern Railway was no known for being all that keen in replacing the older locomotives with new ones many of these sorts of engines I like remained in high abundance right into a good way through the BR days.

Speaking of specific locos of the Southern Railway though, the Terriers have somehow in time become my absolute favorite steam locomotives now, hands down. They have bags of charm, always seem quite capable despite though demunitive size, and their long and varied working lives never ceases to amaze and fascinate me. No small wonder so many of them survived, and indeed why so many of them are still in regular use too. Long may their barks be heard echoing loud and clear wherever they may go.

 

Great shot of her there, would look most fine indeed on the push-pull set at Swanage...

 

That's how I first remember (just) her, but much as I like her BR livery it would be a travesty to change her from the stunning Wainwright livery she now carries.

She was only push-pull fitted in 1960 and was withdrawn on the 4th Jan '64 so it was a short lived modification.

I note the photographer's abandoned case in the foreground - he got a good result from what is clearly a grab shot.

I took this picture of her stored at Robertsbridge in April '66 and she has clearly lost the push-pull kit by then.

Peter

 

Speaking of pull-push gear, W23 and W24 were so-fitted as they first came over from the mainland, but it became apparent that O2s were wasted on the Ventnor West working at that time and the equipment was soon removed. In fact, there's even a drawing in the NRM catalogue entitled: Arrangement of "push & pull" gear, Westinghouse brake & train heating gear; class O2 IOW section engine nos E188 & E209 to be renumbered W23 & W24. There are also some later drawings from around 1946, which would coincide with 35 and 36 being fitted to do the same duty twenty years later, which they did until the line closed and their gear in turn was removed. The arrangement was a bit different to the mainland pull-push O2s, because there was already a nice big brake reservoir, occupying space used for (I think) the emergency regulator closing reservoir on the mainland engines, but good pictures of the Island engines fitted with the equipment seem to be few and far between.

I'm rather curious about the air operated regulator - a position-pressure transducer at one end feeding a pressure-position transducer at the other end of a hundred feet of air pipe isn't a simple thing to get accurate and repeatable, especially when you've got an unpredictable force required to open the regulator - it could have been some type of servo arrangement like a Hadfield power reverser internal to the operating cylinder, but then there's the oddity of the three air lines for the system - one air supply, two for regulator control?

 

Hi, I think the Southern scrapped old steam engines just as actively as the others, but remember their priority was electrifying the London commuter routes, which left them with a certain amount of little branch lines and a surplus of little locos, so they didn't need to build more they could cascade what they had already.

 

Indeed. I think the odd survivals of elderly Victoriana into the 1960s (Terriers, Beattie Well Tanks, Adams Radial tanks and O2s) blinds people to the big picture of SR loco policy.

Tom

 

Interesting that it has what looks like the bracket for supporting the Westinghouse pump still visible in that view.

I have no evidence, but my hunch is that the equipment would still have had some residual value as spares in early 1964 and so was probably removed upon withdrawal before the locomotive was sold.

Tom

 

Each of which were kept for a specific role or a specific area. Look at the other Stroudley locos for a comparison, fantastic things but all got rid of early in SR days

 

I'm curious about how effective it was in practice, particularly the regulator opening.

One of the things notable on many older locos is how difficult it is to open the regulator - particularly to get it into second valve - and to shut it again. Getting into second valve often requires pulling the reverser up very tight, then nudging into second valve, then letting the gear back out, then opening the regulator to the full amount required. As often as not if the boiler water is a bit poor, the damn thing will choose that moment to prime on you ... Shutting a regulator from second valve can be equally problematic: it is not unknown to think you have shut a regulator fully, but actually to have closed the first valve but left the second valve open - the cure is to open the regulator fully, and then slam shut.

All of which fiddling about is one thing on the footplate; quite another when you are stuck two carriage lengths away. I wouldn't be surprised if the oft-repeated stories of the fireman handling regulator and reverser, and the driver just managing the brake, actually represented the norm rather than the exception.

Tom

 

I'd also wondered about the practicality for the fireman of notching up under power, especially on O2s with lever reverse (obviously the H and M7 classes both had steam reversers). The IoW contingent may tell me that it's easy enough to notch up W24 with the regulator well open, of course, but not all slide valve engines have a favourable reputation for this.

It does seem like a slotted arrangement would have been a better bet - with the driver giving permission to the fireman to open the regulator (maybe using a bell system for simple instructions "More power, please!"), but able to close it from the other end; a good air cylinder should be able to provide ample muscle for closing the regulator. In theory less control, but as with many things, a slightly less all-singing-all-dancing system that is actually used is usually preferable. The fireman would then be able to exercise finer control on starting, close a bit to notch up, etc, without eliminating the safety benefit of the driver being able to close the regulator.

I believe the LMS system in the Class 2 tanks was vacuum operated, with secondary regulators in the steam pipes to the cylinders, that seems much more aimed at the driver having on-off control with the fireman able to provide finer control on starting.

 

Scratching my long back memory brain cells and a goggle hunt to confirm. And, as I recalled the H class arrived at Robertsbridge via the mainline in as withdrawn BR condition including its Westinghouse air pump and auto train equipment, but with it motion rods off for towing. That as witnessed here in John Morgan's flick album photo showing the engine soon after arrival. The owing groups aim was to return the loco as near as possible to its early SE&CR condition. As seen in the photo shown a few post up this page that work was well underway with the removal of the air pump and all the associated air pipes etc. The large head SR buffers had also been swapped for the smaller SE&CR type. Mike Hart

https://www.flickr.com/photos/razel...uj-dUM5RH-pu29cn-ptZnG9-ptZnXE-NWLc3n-eaLUBX/

 

It has got me thinking what is the longest time period between the first scrapping (excluding locos damaged in accidents) and the last cutting up of a loco? Wiki has the first Terriers being cut up in 1901 and the last in 1963. The Well Tanks managed 1886 until 1962.

With regard to Southern loco design it meant that the SR didn't really go down a branch (excuse the pun) of loco design that the other three did in developing 2-6-2 or 2-6-4 tanks. Although I wonder what would have happened if the SR had had more success with the Ks and whether that might have triggered developing a 'modern' tank locomotive design. (Considering how much of the Southern was not electrified).

 

I'll go with Ffestiniog 'Small England' 1863/4. 1st withdrawal 1879, 2 still in service.

 

Bullied is supposed to have elevated (not really the right word) a request for such machinery into the Leader. I suppose the late batches of L.M. pattern tank locomotives that came south when brand new were S.R. by default of the Leader debacle
. Pity there were not more.