Fictitious liveries

Yes S&DJR 88 may be in the wrong Livery but i think it looks georgous!
Working on the WSR the amount of people you over hear saying "You dont see very many Blue engines"
I think it makes some nice coulor variety on a predominantly GWR green line.

 

Columbine asks

If you know your subject be honest. Tell the child that the locomotive was originally built by the LMS and as part of its policy of standardisation the locomotive was built to its present state. The original livery of the LMS was the red livery but - because of WWII and the subsequent nationalisation - that livery was never applied to the locomotive. The present owners, however, wished to restore the locomotive to the state that the LMS would have adopted had WWII and nationalisation not taken place; in fact it is a good example of an historical case of "what might have been" as this is a common thread of English History.

You're not lying but you are providing an interesting historical thought which might widen the child's ppreciation of how much difference circumstances can make and how history can be changed by the simple / insignificant thing which has tremendous repercussions.

 

Much of what you say is true or true-ish but I'd far rather that you weren't so damned patronising about it.

The post war LMS passenger livery was black with a bit of lining. 'Scots Guardsman' was originally painted thus in the 1970s

 

Although aware of the post-war black linned LMS livery I have always wondered if that choice was made because of the impending nationalisation when the LMS would be seeking to minimise expense until the Government took over and would bear the future cost of repainting locos in whatever livery it adopted.

Also apologies if my post came across as patronising - it's the way I write which actually catches people out until they relate it to my style of speech.

 

Fred,

Thank you for your apology, of course it's accepted.

Regards

 

Tornado is an interesting case in this discussion. It's new and is owned by its builders, so it is writing its own history from scratch. The A1 Trust can paint it any colour they choose, but the only company name or crest it can authentically carry is their own. It was not built by, and has never been owned by, BR. Once they apply the BR name or crest, it falls into the same category as locos like 7827 Lydham Manor, 9466 or 1306 Mayflower which were built after nationalisation but to a pre-nationalisation design and currently carry pre-nationalisation livery and company names.

I'm not saying that what they've done is wrong. I agree with the decision of recreating all of the liveries that the A1 class carried during its first boiler ticket, and it looks magnificent. What I am trying to show is the inconsistency in most of the arguments concerning ex-mainline loco liveries, which seems to be that BR liveries are always acceptable even when they were never carried, whereas pre-nationalisation and pre-grouping liveries have to be spot on authentic for some people to find acceptable.

 

Without wishing to be provocative, and I honestly don't want to be provocative, surely the way to see 'Tornado' is as a full size scale model. This might sound a little daft and I have just come back from a very nice liquid lunch, but ...

If any of us bought the 'Bachmann' 4mm model of the A1 we would expect it to be in an authentic livery, so what's the difference apart from size (and it all works) from a 4mm/ft representation and a 12"/ft representation? Why should there be a different attitude applied to them?

Regards

 

That's an interesting idea, but it does have a flaw. If Tornado hadn't been built and you were to buy a Bachmann A1 model, it would be a model of one of the 49 A1 locomotives and carry the appropriate name and number. Tornado has its own identity as the 50th member of the class. It doesn't pretend to be a 12 inches to the foot model of one of the original 49.

 

Whee, we're off again! Actually, what the A1 pretends to be or otherwise isn't relevant; it's how people perceive it that counts. And, as we know, different people will perceive it from entirely opposite angles.

Personally, I'm with Columbine!

 

But, going a bit further, had one of the original 49 survived into preservation, Tornado wouldn't have been built. I thought the whole reason of being for 60163 was to recreate something that was lost over forty years ago? Hence by trying to recreate something from that era, the livery should follow that idea...? Or maybe not.... ;-)

 

Let me play devil's advocate on that one. The A1 Trust site states:

But I digress, because I wasn't trying to make a point specifically about Tornado, merely using it to make a point. Which is that some people will always try to use any "lack of authenticity" argument to promote their desire for BR livery, when the same argument could be used to show that BR livery is equally unauthentic. Simon made the following point:

which is true, but an equally valid argument is that changes made by the heritage movement post-withdrawal to make a loco suitable for its new owner's required use (for example fitting of steam heating equipment, air brakes and air brake pumps, TPWS, OMTR) make the livery at the time of withdrawal equally "incorrect". But as most locos were withdrawn carrying BR livery, no one ever makes that point.
Anyway, back to the original point of the thread. The following aren't ex-BR, but:

WD 90733 - BR black
WD 90775 - BR black

 

What is the difference between black and BR black?

 

Of course it has a flaw, I'm still waiting for my masterpiece!

No, to be serious what I think really matters is whether or not an engine or other piece of rolling stock looks the part. For me I don't mind that 'Earl Of Berkeley' shouldn't perhaps carry name plates or that 88 is in prussian blue; the issue there is that these features fit. For me they do, but the six wheel Stanier brake in Pullman livery just feels wrong. It's that subjective which is why this topic will, as somebody mentioned when it was first mooted, just run and run.

However ... I do thing it's a little too trusting to take the idea of the A1 being the 50th member of the class just because the A1 Trust say they feel it is so. For me, these new build engines (and I do welcome them I really do) are models. Tornado is made from metric sized materials not imperial. I believe it has design features which are not as the original like the welded boiler. I'm sure that there are a number of features which are not original and weren't at all in contemplation when the design was conceived, but does it matter? Of course not.

Bachmanns A1 is 1:76.2 scale, the A1 Trust's A1 is full size. One is made mostly of plastic the other of metal, mostly steel; but neither is original. But also both are terrific representations of that lost original and I'd far rather have them for all their philosophical imperfections!

Now I'm going to be provocative ... if this 'fiftieth member' of the class was renamed and renumbered as say 'Great Central' would it still be the 'fiftieth member' or a reproduction of 'Great Central' ? :smt059

Regards

 

BR Black is blacker.

 

What a load of pedantic nonsence - surely 60163 should have been named Trainspotter in honour of all us nutters =D>

 

Surely any livery actually applied to a loco without photo shop is a real livery so No.88 in SDJR blue isn't a fictional livery anymore but 53808 in BR blue is a different matter. :-k
If my own hypothesis is correct BR blue & BR green are currently fictitious liveries for Tornado and Apple green & grey are the only 'authentic' liveries for Tornado at the moment.

 

Arent we thinking about the wording a little too much? We all know the gist of it...

Something I'd like to see again (Especially on some of the smaller lines) are new liveries promoting the present line, for example how the KWVR had a few locos back in the early days. Although it may not be an accurate representation in some aspects (Although locos such as Errol Lonsdale on the SDR never wore BR black pre-preservation either), I wouldnt mind seeing the odd austerity or polish tKh in 'new' liveries as it were.

 

Well, of course, 323 Bluebell was in totally non-authentic blue livery for years, when it was repainted into SECR wartime green I remember a lot of people were very disappointed!

 

The biggest Fictitious livery has to be 60103 Tornado.

Not only is it new build it is not even an exact replica so should not carry any paint work!

 

71000 raised bright metal numbers,73050 always black in BR days ,saw here at Willesden and at NVR when first arrived.