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Bluebell Railway General Discussion

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by Jamessquared, Feb 16, 2013.

  1. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    I think a diversionary mainline is a non starter.

    First of all, it only actually helps with closures on a small part of the Brighton mainline - between East Croydon and Haywards Heath. Any blockage elsewhere the Bluebell doesn't help.

    Then you have got how long it takes, and capacity. You have a current 40 minutes East Croydon - East Grinstead; probably at least 30 minutes on the Bluebell East Grinstead to Ardingly (at 25mph), plus the logistics of getting something on and off the line at each end. So say a 90 minute journey East Croydon to Haywards Heath to replace what is a current 30 minute journey. Plus probably a maximum of one train every 40 minutes in each direction (limited by the single line capacity on the Bluebell).

    Then you add in what stock. Southern drivers are primarily trained on electric stock, so you would have to find diesel units to run an East Croydon - Haywards Heath via EG service. Then factor in that you would have to have regular route learning just on the off chance.

    Or else you bustitute on the rare occasions the BML is closed ...

    It sounds tempting, but I really can't see it being an attractive proposition to Network Rail once you think through the consequences, relative to the flexibility of hiring buses now and again.

    Tom
     
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  2. BrightonBaltic

    BrightonBaltic Member

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    Even if you can get track made specifically to imperial dimensions, does it really make any difference? That just gives you an extra tenth of a millimetre tolerance. Not something that I suspect would worry the NR engineer types overly...
     
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  3. BrightonBaltic

    BrightonBaltic Member

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    Wasn't EGR-Ardingly double track throughout until closure in the 60s? If NR were prepared to invest money, I suppose it could theoretically be redoubled and/or made capable of running faster than 25mph, and EGR residents would be able to commute to HH and Brighton thereby.

    Obviously, this is all academic, as I don't know whether NR would find this attractive... but I'm currently seeing them take over my local line (Okehampton) and a serious eight-figure sum has been allocated in the Budget for its reopening...
     
  4. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Yes it was double track - but you’d have to realign through the tunnel and across the viaduct (where the track was slewed so as to allow continued use of slam door stock), plus buy a short section of line north of Kingscote, plus dig out a lot more of Imberhorne cutting (£££) in order to re-instate it.

    The bottom line is NR could I suppose take over lock stock and barrel. But I can’t see how NR and a heritage line could co-exist - it would be one or the other.

    Tom
     
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  5. BrightonBaltic

    BrightonBaltic Member

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    Yes, I'm aware that Imberhorne was not fully excavated. I didn't realise that the viaduct was an issue - I take it that rules have tightened on that front since it last saw an EMU? I think that the Bluebell volunteer I spoke to a few years ago feared that NR would simply kick the Bluebell off the line and take over EGR-Ardingly entirely.
     
  6. Cosmo Bonsor

    Cosmo Bonsor Member

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    Yes, Tom did. But you know that.
     
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  7. BrightonBaltic

    BrightonBaltic Member

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    Hence the winking smiley.
     
  8. Monkey Magic

    Monkey Magic Part of the furniture

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    Wouldn't it be quicker for EG residents to just drive to Three Bridges to get to HH or Brighton?
     
  9. A1X

    A1X Well-Known Member

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    Is there much point to an Ardingly extension without a mainline connection at the end of it? Not like the station site is anywhere near the actual village to make it a destination.
     
  10. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    That is pretty much at the heart of the debate about the extension.

    The most coherent articulation I have seen for going is to create a section of railway that could be used for "special purposes" more or less isolated from the main railway; that would in turn give much more flexibility about scheduling such things. By "special purposes" I mean anything where line occupation is key and timings can't be guaranteed: film contracts, footplate experiences, training courses for other organisations etc. So if you have no regular service to accommodate, much easier to say, for example, to a film company that we have a venue that they can have more or less free reign on. As things stand, such events either have to fit around a scheduled service or, more likely, run when the railway is otherwise shut, which cuts down the time of year when they can be accommodated.

    I would hope that before a big push is made, that there is a viable reason for going given. It isn't going to be about additional passengers as far as I can see, so there has to be some other justification.

    If we were to go, that might then mean that in passenger terms, it was high days and holidays only; I could also imagine diverting one train a week - something like the lunchtime GA or Wealden Rambler - over the line as a means to ensure loco crew, guards and HK signalmen maintained competency over the line.

    Personal view as always.

    Tom
     
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  11. Bikermike

    Bikermike Well-Known Member

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    I take it the idea of having somewhere with 3rd rail for electrics to play has been abandoned? (at least for now)
     
  12. MellishR

    MellishR Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    While we're complaining about Tom's spelling,
    shouldn't that be "free rein"?
     
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  13. free2grice

    free2grice Part of the furniture Friend

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    Lockdown appears to have turned some to triviality. <BJ>
     
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  14. D1039

    D1039 Guest

    Going all electrification, there's a push to get some more third rail on the big railway with a leading proposition being that the rail only become live when a train is in section*. That would potentially make a heritage 3rd rail option more feasible too, though the additional risks to a heritage railway would surely outweigh the marginal benefits, nice as it might be to have it?

    Patrick


    *I'd have thought the on/off might increase risk ("I stood on it yesterday and it was fine"), but that's a discussion for another thread
     
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  15. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    I guess before anyone gets too excited on third rail, the current (freight only) Ardingly branch from Copyhold Junction isn't electrified. So even if the Bluebell extended to Ardingly, and even if we put in an end-on connection to the mainline there, you still can't do 3rd rail unless you also electrify the NR branch. Not entirely sure what Hanson might think about that! Without that, you lose what might be a possibility, which would be to re-instate a mainline service from Haywards Heath, just as originally happened. (The only reason HK was originally electrified, as I understand, was to help platform occupancy at Haywards Heath by routing a Seaford train to HK and back, rather than have it lay over in the platform at HH).

    Section-only electrification: no idea on the technical feasibility, but bear in mind in Bluebell terms, the section would be HK - Ardingly, so would in essence always be occupied when you were running a service.

    The other consideration is the track circuiting at HK, which I believe would suffer interference if you electrified. You'd have to replace with AC track circuits, which is possible, but now you have just added a major signalling project on top of everything else - at least that is my understanding.

    It's all a bit of a non-starter in my view, though I think technically it is still held open as a possibility on the Long Term Plan. But the phrasing is just to do an "investigation" in the "projects aspired to in the 25 year timescale" along with a southern extension, i.e. "someone else can solve that problem".

    Tom
     
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  16. Johnb

    Johnb Nat Pres stalwart

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    The rule on both the Southern and LT was and I assume still is, do not step on any rail. It’s a way of ensuring that you never step on the wrong one.
     
  17. Shaggy

    Shaggy Part of the furniture

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    The rule is indeed "treat the 3rd rail as live at all times" and that includes when you have personally taken a temporary isolation and tested it. The amount of residual current that can be found in the system, especially on trains in section can still be high, and then there are floater rails. So pleased I work at Salisbury, don't have to worry about all that eltrickity stuff. Here we've only just got that wonderful invention of Thomas Edison to allow us to work in the office at night!
     
  18. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Clarification please. Are we talking about operating only preserved 3rd rail kit (for which a viable workaround occurs), or occasional jaunts off the big railway (for which one doesn't)?
     
  19. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    I’m not sure a viable workaround for operating preserved 3rd rail kit does exist, does it, except “haul using a non electric loco”?

    It is worth pointing out that the Bluebell does own an EMU (a 4-VEP). However it is being maintained at Strawberry Hill by a group with considerable knowledge and experience of how to do so; and will in time be used on the mainline. I don’t think the core Bluebell operation has within it the space, expertise or capacity to run an electric unit. (It’s that old question about opportunity cost again - what gives?)

    Tom
     
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  20. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    I beg to differ. Right up to the 4REP units, there was a guard/luggage area. Yer modern Lithium batteries (EV variety) could be arranged to be invisible from outside, yet still provide (somewhere around) 500-550vdc, which would be more than adequate for heritage ploddings at 25mph. If the appearance of a dummy 3rd rail were required, that's possible too.

    In the case of the Bluebell, I'd absolutely agree even the appearance of electrification is way off core ambience, but I'm 90% certain that safe demonstration operation of EMUs is technically feasible.
     
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