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Bluebell Railway General Discussion

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by Jamessquared, Feb 16, 2013.

  1. Matt37401

    Matt37401 Nat Pres stalwart

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    Just out of curiosity Tom has any of the MK1 stock on the Bluebell retained its ETH capability or has it all been removed?
     
  2. Monkey Magic

    Monkey Magic Part of the furniture

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    Let me reverse your claim, what will be restored because the 3H isn't being purchased or restored? What benefits and how does that benefit the line more than a 3H would?

    You haven't been drinking the water on Hayling Island have you?
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2021
  3. torgormaig

    torgormaig Part of the furniture Friend

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    I think that we have a case in point on the NYMR with the Met Cam DMU. It is a very useful and versatile piece of kit and fits very well in the railway. The downside to it seems to be our inability to adequately maintain it as we do not have the resources available to allocate to it. Sure a railway of our size could do it but as Tom says it would be at the expense of other things which are probably more essential. You cannot do everything you might want to in preservation and there comes a point when you need to decide to do what you can do well, rather than try to do everything and do it badly. Like the Bluebell, the NYMR is essentially a Steam railway and it is hardly surprising that that will be where the priorities lie.

    Peter
     
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  4. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Currently in the C&W workshop being restored are, to my knowledge, the wheelchair-accessible Pullman for the dining train (lots of recent pictures in the latest Bluebell Times - hint hint); a Stroudley all 3rd and a Stroudley brake 3rd Victorian carriages; a Maunsell Corridor Brake 3rd; and the Bicester Military Railway Mark 1 SO. All of those are being done to meet a specific objective in the Long Term Plan.

    If you take the two Victorian carriages as a pair, that is basically four full length carriages, and the workshop is full. So the answer to the question of what is being restored because the 3H isn't purchased - choose any three of those four.

    If you did buy it and restore it, something currently stored under cover would have to live outside. Take your pick from the Mets or the birdcage / LBSCR 1st / 100 seater; or the three Maunsell's as being sets of roughly equivalent length.

    That is what I am talking about when I say that taking something new on has a massive opportunity cost. Don't restore the Pullman, Maunsell and two Victorian 4 wheelers; and put the SR Edwardian bogie carriages outside.

    Tom
     
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  5. Monkey Magic

    Monkey Magic Part of the furniture

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    All true but that assumes that it would take the place inside at the expense of something currently inside and not wait its turn outside like every other project.

    This would be a future project not a current project (?) so it wouldn't be in competition with those there has to be something in the pipeline that would be set back more than something that is currently under work.

    All projects are an A rather than B. If someone were to say 'lets restore the Pullman you are not restoring something else, if you are restoring a TSO you aren't restoring x'.

    I am not sure I buy into the idea that all projects suffer because of investing in another area (rolling stock, extensions etc). If you restore the Adams radial you aren't restoring the NLR tank but you probably aren't setting back the restoration of the 9F. If you invest in restoring the heritage toilets you probably aren't critically setting back other projects.

    Clearly, not every restoration is a pure economic/how does this benefit the railway calculation because there are always symbolic 'nice to have' restorations.

    The arguments for not doing something need to be as compelling as the arguments for doing it.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2021
  6. Paulthehitch

    Paulthehitch Well-Known Member

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    Hayling , along with much of S.E. Hants., actually has some of the best quality drinking water in the U.K. :Resistanceisfutile: More seriously there is hardly a tourist railway without a deal of ''stuff'' which it does not have the resources to look after .
     
  7. andrewtoplis

    andrewtoplis Well-Known Member

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    I understand what you are saying, but I've yet to see a compelling argument for doing it (in this case buying + restoring the unit at Dartmoor).
     
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  8. John Petley

    John Petley Part of the furniture

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    Mind you, if instead of the T3, the NRM had decided to dispose of Gladstone or the D Class (and offered it to the Bluebell), I think you'd have struggled to stay firm to your principles!
     
  9. 34002salisbury

    34002salisbury New Member

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    A lot (if not most) of diesel locomotives on heritage railways aren't owned by the railway themselves but rather individuals/groups who then look after it themselves and should therefore have minimal impact on existing overhauls/restorations etc. So long as the railway are co-operative with the usage of facilities and maybe provide the opportunity to have a few public running days a year then it should be smiles all round? Having a powerful loco you can start up in an hour is a lot better than one that needs several. And when it comes to steam bans (due to fire risks etc.) running a diesel at least provides some income rather than losing a day's running all together!
     
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  10. Monkey Magic

    Monkey Magic Part of the furniture

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    Absolutely, but I think there is also a tendency to WIBN ;) in not taking on anything new, to imagine that if we don't take on project x, that my favoured project y which has been sitting in a headshunt for the last 45 years will get the Cinderella treatment.

    There is nothing per se essential about anything on a heritage line, they are all optional nice to haves. And that space, resources are finite and that something will inevitably not survive.

    What I would consider is this - is the level of threat that relative objects are under. I can absolutely buy the argument that says that x is deteriorating outside and it is critical that it gets inside if it is to be saved, and I can also get that if it is a choice between x or y and you say x is more historically important, or that x is of more material use than z which is also historically important.

    What I object to is more the pearl clutching 'won't somebody think about the unrestored rolling stock' when it is hard to actually ID something that will directly suffer because a new alternative project is taken on.

    No, I haven't either. The general useful to have arguments I think apply. I think the symbolic arguments for Swanage were the most compelling but that is a weak case to make, which I suspect does not bode well for the future of them.

    My general take is that post-covid uncertainty means that all lines are retrenching and becoming more (small c) conservative in their outlook and attitudes towards new projects.

    That said, I don't think that the costs (to the line) in getting the 3H are as high and detrimental as are assumed.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2021
  11. goldfish

    goldfish Nat Pres stalwart

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    Hmmmmm… I'm no expert in hands-on railway restoration obviously, but as a basic principle of conservation and management I'm really not sure about this. Wear and tear, and the gradual erosion of materials with age, is a more or less constant thing. There's not really current and future projects, there's just a collection of stuff that all needs to be looked after and periodically significantly restored to sustain it for the future. If I add more things to that collection, I either have to add capacity to restore more things, or extend the gaps between repairs and maintenance, with consequences for even more additional work (as more erosion happens over time). That's not sustainable unless you can match the expansion in stuff with people and infrastructure.

    Simon
     
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  12. ruddingtonrsh56

    ruddingtonrsh56 Member

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    All true. All you need to do is find a diesel owning group and convince them to move their home base to the Bluebell, and simultaneously encourage the Bluebell to have regular diesel running rostered in for (I think) the first time in their history :)
     
  13. Monkey Magic

    Monkey Magic Part of the furniture

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    Don't disagree but there is a significant body of material that exists in 'long term project category' with no defined plan for restoration, use etc but I struggle with the idea that such vague projects would be critically set back by a newer project that does have a plan for restoration. There is plenty of stuff that was unrestored in 1980 and I suspect it will still be unrestored in 2080 even if nothing else were ever acquired.

    you left out 'and navigate the hostile pitchfork burning inhabitants.' :) Easy as pie :)
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2021
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  14. 34002salisbury

    34002salisbury New Member

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    Anything is possible!
     
  15. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Enqiiry: is the plan to mount these on modified (comparatively) modern underframes e.g. GUV or go down the Knotty/IWSR road and create new frames? Merely curious.
     
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  16. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    None operational AFAIK - everything is steam heated.

    Re-purposed GUV under frames (they have already been modified to suit, AFAIK).

    (BTW - you'll have the speling pollice after you - Enqiiry!)

    Tom
     
  17. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    I can't remember ever losing a day to a steam ban.

    Tom
     
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  18. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Firstly, I simply don't think external restoration for a carriage is realistic. And even if you do the body outside, what about things like trimming? You've got three carriages worth of seats to do for the 3H when there is already a full queue of work just to keep up with the current operational fleet. It's not as simple as saying something is within the workshop or outside.

    Then you have the maintenance. We have a carriage programme that in broad terms aims to do a door and lock maintenance every 7.5 years, an intermediate overhaul every fifteen, a full overhaul every thirty. Adding in three more operational carriages is adding something like 10% to that programme of work. It has a cost, and there isn't a saving elsewhere (since those costs are not primarily mileage based).

    So it is not just the project to overhaul it in the first place: it is the requirement to keep it operational. If you want a compelling argument for not taking on another project, it is the extra maintenance burden it will impose.

    I think for any heritage attraction, knowing when to say no is just as important as knowing when to say yes. Organisations don't have unlimited capacity.

    Tom
     
  19. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

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    I think there’s something in that, but it would require any railway doing this to wholeheartedly adopt a full living museum ethos, and to accept/embrace the constraints.

    That ship sailed many years ago, even at the Bluebell, and I would now have an honest acceptance of modern traction including it’s use “front of house”.

    For reference, my last visit to the Bluebell was for a diesel gala.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  20. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Cheers Tom. I'll make the next one a quiry, just to be on the safe side. ;)

    Whilst it'd be a shame to lose a BR(S) classic, it sounds to me as if the combination of many doors (mentioned as a particular pain for restorers) on top of a diesel lump means if this beastie is to have a future it needs somewhere accustomed to overhauling diesels opting to act as a restoration base, which itself would only seem likely if there were a reasonable prospect of recouping costs via running fees. They don't remotely possess the panoramic qualities of many 1st gen DMMUs (class 103 were good in this respect, shame about the corrosion problems) and from personal memory, always struck me as a noisier, smellier version of the EPBs, with distressingly similar riding qualities. Were it the last of it's breed, there'd be a better case to be made.
     

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