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Llangollen Railway

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by 14xx Lover, Jan 4, 2010.

  1. Martin Perry

    Martin Perry Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator Friend

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    The Engineering side of the business wasn't suddenly created, it grew from very small beginnings, doing small machining jobs etc. As it became bigger, the profits from it were a useful addition to the Railways turnover.
    Obviously with the benefit of hindsight it would have been better to have it trading separately, but for much of the time, there was no indication that the work would be anything but profitable.
     
  2. RichardBrum

    RichardBrum Member

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    There are logical add-ons, & not so logical ones.

    Heritage railways are visitor attractions, which means that most of their customers are consumers who also have discretionary spending. That means you can upsell & sell add-ons during their visit.
    So, catering & souvenirs are the obvious, & logical, add-ons.

    Now, i'm sure most people will say that the railways already do those.
    But are there opportunities to do more?

    If you've got a nice cafe, in a touristy location, then could you open on non-operating days?
    It's not a different operation, just an extension of what is already done.

    Afternoon tea on the train?

    Personalised souvenirs?



    That's how the conglomerates came about, & pretty much all of those have gone.

    Diversifying a business is good, as long as you don't get too far away from the core business.

    An engineering business doesn't bring in consumers, so it's not a positive for the core business.
    There's no transferable skills for the staff/volunteers.
     
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  3. Vulcan Works

    Vulcan Works Member

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    Apart from the mechanical and electrical skills and workshop infrastructure that it takes to run a railway, of course.
     
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  4. Paulthehitch

    Paulthehitch Well-Known Member

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    It is not the idea for engineering subsidiaries to lose money, any more than it is for catering operations . They exist to provide net income for "the cause" and not to be a a drain on it.
     
  5. std tank

    std tank Part of the furniture

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    Are you referring to the engineering operations required to keep the railway running or to the errant contract engineering operation?
     
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  6. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Clearly the latter. Fixing your own locos is a cost of running the service. Fixing someone else’s only makes sense if it contributes to the overall bottom line and doesn’t divert resources needed to provide the equipment needed to run your core operation.

    I remember some years ago being a member of a railway in which a contract engineering business spend several magazine’s worth of reports proudly discussing a contract machining job on a vintage car engine. At the same time they had a motive power shortage. I scratched my head in wonder.

    Tom
     
  7. Paulthehitch

    Paulthehitch Well-Known Member

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    Forgive me but I think it was fairly evident that is the contract side which is being referred to
     
  8. RichardBrum

    RichardBrum Member

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    That doesn't mean that you expand it into a separate operation that's touting for external business.

    Nor does it mean that you have to expand it so that it can do anything & everything. There's a big difference between routine maintenance & major overhaul/major repairs.


    If you use the same, or similar, till system for booking office, cafe & on-train catering, then it's easy to shuffle people around if required. They'll already be used to a customer facing role, & be dressed appropriately.


    Jack in the workshop may be brilliant at making/fitting X, but can you easily move him to a customer facing role if required?
    If you don't sell someone that ticket, or cup of tea etc, today, you don't get another chance to do it tomorrow.


    I'm not saying you shouldn't have the ability to do a quick fix to get a loco/carriage back in service.
     
  9. Bikermike

    Bikermike Well-Known Member

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    Unless the car was steam-powered or the railway engines petrol, there is no automatic overlap there.

    Also, how long was the shortage? How much business did the overhaul coverage generate? (Either passengers or engineering). If you have steam engines out of boiler ticket and no boilersmiths, you might as well generate funds to pay for the works with staff and machinery that was otherwise idle.
     
  10. Steamage

    Steamage Part of the furniture

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  11. Paulthehitch

    Paulthehitch Well-Known Member

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    Oh dear! If it is costing more to carry out work than the sum received for it, this is not generating funds. It is dissipating them .
    This seems to have been what happened .
     
  12. Mogul

    Mogul Member

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    Harmans Cross to Corfe Castle and Norden
     
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  13. Sidmouth

    Sidmouth Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Moderator

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    A number of lines have engineering business , SVR, NNR , SDR , ESR are four that quickly spring to mind undertaking loco overhauls . If you have capacity and desire to develop your in house engineering resource then contract work can be a very useful way of generating supplementary income as well as maintaining expertise

    Llangollen had a very good reputation , with a well known list of engines being worked on . I have seen very a number of stories in circulation , some of which concur, some conflict however a a change happened that precipitated the catastrophe we have now . The emotional part I'm sure wants to lay blame ,my rational head would like an in depth independent analysis done to clearly lay out the steps that happened so other lines can avoid them. It may mean some individuals may come out with little credit , it may exonerate others , it may highlight failures of control that other lines need to be aware of so we are not in this position again .

    I do fear for Llangollen and 40+ years of effort are being undone by this . Even if the lines future is secured so much of the lines soul has left the challenge of restarting and rebuilding just gets bigger. When long standing owners are removing engines and rolling stock and even the crown jewels are up for sale it paints a picture that for all the optimism Llangollen could be back in 1980's , only this time no Barry to bolster the fleet
     
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  14. ghost

    ghost Part of the furniture

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    What if Jack doesn't want be be moved? What if Jack has no interest in selling tickets but is very happy to fix steam engines belonging to the railway or not. I think you're falling into the trap of thinking of heritage railways as "ordinary" businesses with staff that can be moved to any post. Volunteers are slightly trickier to deal with-try to make them do something that they don't want to do and they will walk!
     
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  15. DcB

    DcB Well-Known Member

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    https://www.thebusinessdesk.com/nor...ed-to-help-rescue-historic-llangollen-railway
    "Michael Booth, at LSH, has been appointed to market the railway and its assets and all bids must be in by close of business next Monday, March 22, 2021"
    So bids for the PLC have to be in on Monday.
    So far the only known bidder is the Trust, who may not raise enough in it's bid to keep the bank, employees claiming redundancy and other claiments happy?
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2021
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  16. Alan Kebby

    Alan Kebby Well-Known Member

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    Was that (and the other examples noted) really built with the expectation of making a surplus?

    I thought the Mid Hants borrowed heavily for their extension and it ended up almost crippling them financially.

    Swanage almost went bankrupt during the time their extension was being built too. To be fair though, once it opened it did really well and basically ended up being the saviour of the railway.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2021
  17. Alan Kebby

    Alan Kebby Well-Known Member

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    So is this bids for the the Plc as a whole, and if not successful assets might be sold separately?

    The Trust might be the only known bidder, but that doesn’t mean that they aren’t others keeping their cards closer to their chest.
     
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  18. RA & FC

    RA & FC Well-Known Member

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    It’s funny how these owners were also members of the railways board until last September.
     
  19. Alan Kebby

    Alan Kebby Well-Known Member

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    Well now there are no trains running and no income to be earnt remaining at Llangollen, and a very uncertain future. Meanwhile there are other railways immediately willing to pay for the use of these locos and stock.

    As a loco owner, what would you do?
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2021
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  20. Barry Buckley

    Barry Buckley New Member

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    Yes, there have been plenty of trains running at the West Somerset haven’t there!
    A future Llangollen steam fleet based around 5532, 7754 and 80072 sounds like quite a nice economical set of locos. 3802 isn’t going anywhere at the moment and there is very much the hope of being able to use it to run services in a few months time (I don’t think that many other railways will be running over the next couple of months). Austin 1 and Jennifer will also both be usable this year, although the long term future of these engines may be considered by the board.

    Either way, Llangollen aren’t without steam options for running services this year and that’s without including the diesels and DMUs which are all usable.

    It might be worth noting how much of the last year and a half 5199 and 6430 have been in a runnable condition.... Also, how much money will 5199 will be lacking when it comes out of service in a few years time? Where is this money going to come from if the leaders of the group have burnt all their bridges with Llangollen supporters?
     
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