LMS tenders

Just a minor correction. 48305s tender chassis is a midland railway chassis, it has larger cut outs between axle boxes requiring a J shaped spring hanger bracket rather than the Y shaped brackets of the fowler tender.
The other 2 midland chassis' to survive are coupled to the spiner and the nrm crab. Meaning the 3 preserved midland chassis carry a Johnson, fowler and stanier tank.

 

One question has bothered me for many years, and that is why 5XP’s and 8F’s could often be seen with
Fowler tenders but I have never seen one attached to a Black Five. Can anyone enlighten me about this?

 

To simplify a very complex situation:

When the first 5Xs were built, the Stanier 4000 gallon tender had not been introduced and so the first ones were ordered and built with the Fowler 3500 gallon type. Later 5Xs were ordered with Stanier tenders, but there were seventy Royal Scots attached to Fowler tenders, and as these were the main long distance passenger engines, the new tenders were diverted to them and the second-hand Fowler tenders transferred to the 5Xs. By the time the Black Fives were introduced, the Stanier tender was available and all got these.

All 8Fs were built with Stanier tenders, but in the 1950s it was decided that the 5Xs' need was greater than the 8Fs', as these had more opportunities to take water out on the road so there were quite a few tender exchanges between the two classes. In the 'sixties and as withdrawals of both types took place, spare Stanier tenders became available and several 8Fs reacquired the Stanier type before final withdrawal.

 

Off topic, but similarly, as discussed on here previously, strangely Granges rarely gained Hawksworth tenders.

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Not sure it is really strange - presumably the locos would be ordered with new large tenders but they would go to a different loco, and the old, smaller tenders would cascade down for use on the Granges. Such swaps at building were certainly common on the Southern, where locos were now and again ordered with tenders that they would never be coupled to in service.

For example, the Maunsell Q class were ordered with 4,000 gallon tenders new, but never carried them. Those tenders were built as a mixture of RHD and LHD and went variously to a similar number of class U and N moguls. The old U and N class 3,500 gallon tenders went to the Q class from new, some of them needing to be converted first to LHD.

Tom

 

Thank you for your help and simplified explanation. It just seems odd that some 5XP’s persisted with Fowler tenders
to the end yet 5’s didn’t donate any. Were there any instances of black fives perhaps running with a Fowler tender as
an emergency replacement?

 

None that I know of; I've never seen any such photos.

What possibly isn't realised is that going from a Fowler to a Stanier tender or vice versa isn't just a matter of lifting the pins in the drawbars, moving the new tender across and dropping the pins back in. There needs to be some modification to the rear of the cab, including the wing plates, to take account of the Fowler tender's being 18 inches narrower than the Stanier one.

 

I don't think I put that very well, the Granges were (in the main at least) built with 3500 gallon Collett tenders and over time they, as with the Halls gained 4000 gallon versions, thus its very common to see photos, especially in BR times, of them with 4000 Collett tenders but unlike the halls (and Castles) where the mix of Collett and Hawksworth tenders was pretty random I think I have only ever seen one picture of a grange with a Hawksworth one. Its the same with the 47xx although I recall this was something to do with drag box design/material.

Yes I am dull with a tender fixation.

 

That's not what I have. According to the Tender drawing register there were only 27 3,500 gallon flush tank tenders, which were nominally built for lot 254 -Halls.
Although the loco committee minutes appear to show approval for the Granges to be built with tenders (unlike the Manors), I can't find any tenders associated with lot 308 in the tender register, and RCTS says they were originally towing second hand well tank tenders, as were their 43 precursors.
There was obviously a lot of cascading going on though, since lots of 4,000 gallon flush tank tenders are listed as being built with 2251s and Manors as well as the more obvious Castles and Halls.

Jim C

 

I understand that one Black 5 ran briefly with the 3500 gallon Stanier tender, this was the only time one didn't have the standard 4000 gallon type

 

Ah, yes, the Stanier 3,500 gallon tender, a totally different animal and full width to the engine's cab. Unless the photo is quite sharp, they're almost impossible to tell from the 4000 gallon type. The clue is the wider gap between the horizontal row of rivets and the the back platform which houses the tank filler and vents.

 

wasn't there 40 of them and they were always with 5Xs? Another oddity was the straight high sided one, I've seen pictures of one of those with a 4F, an 8F and a 5X.

 

Close, but no cigar! This is where we get into the complex part of the story.

There were ten of the high-sided - and very ugly - Fowler tenders numbered 4564-73 and attached to 5XPs 5607-16. Of the Stanier 3500 gallon type, there were fifty of them altogether, of which 4600-49 went new to 5617-66. In later years, the high Fowler ones went to both 4Fs, one Compound and 8Fs, though I'm less sure of where all the Stanier type finished up. 4615 ran behind 8F 8218 until this engine was withdrawn, 30/9/67, when it was transferred to another 8F, 8757. This pairing lasted only two months when both were withdrawn.

 

I seem to have opened a can of worms!
However, many thanks for answering a question that has bothered me for years.

 

If Stanier 4000 gallon tenders had not been introduced when the Jubes were introduced, then they wouldnt have been around when the Lizzies entered traffic the previous year. But I've never been aware of Lizzies having a fowler tender, so what were they built with? And why were these not built for Jubes either?

 

They had Fowler tenders to start with, AFAIK - see e.g. https://www.alamy.com/lms-princess-...=1&vd=0&lb=&fi=2&edrf=&ispremium=1&flip=0&pl=

I've always thought they looked quite handsome like that (though I think better from the side; from the front the widths don't seem to match). The big Stanier tenders always look like they over power a locomotive to me - aesthetics judgement only, no judgement implied on the practicalities!

Tom

 

I think the Fowler type tender on the first Lizzies was longer than the standard 3500 gallon one, the 4000 gallon chassis with a Fowler type top. Might be wrong, no doubt 2968 will know

 

Preserved 8F no 8305 has s 3500 gal Stanier tender.

 

There is an interesting image of a Stanier 3500 gallon tender behind compound 40936, on the Warwickshire Railways website: https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/lnwrmlsh74.htm

Andy

 

To my mind, the LNER 8-wheel tenders look far more appropriate for an engine as large as a Pacific.

Small tenders were often thought sufficient for large engines on those routes that were well provided with water troughs, such as the LNWR and L&YR. But among the LMS constituents, the Caledonian had no troughs prior to Grouping, so was like the LSWR in needing large tenders. Some of the Dunalastairs had bogie tenders whose fully laden weight was roughly the same as the engine - about 50 tons each.

https://railway-photography.smugmug...cKintosh-CR-721-Class-Dunalastair/i-Stcjpnj/A

The GWR also paired small 3500-gallon tenders with large 4-6-0s and 2-8-0s, but curiously a few of the 2251-class 0-6-0s acquired ex-ROD 4000-gallon tenders, heavier than the engines.