Locomotive Superintendents

I think you need a reasonable arrow from both the GWR Castle and the SR Lord Nelson to the Royal Scot. Cox in his books is pretty clear that the exchange was a major factor in setting out the fundamentals of the Scots, whilst the LN drawings were studied as part of the design process. The amount of influence, of course, depends on whether you believe Holcroft or Cox' version of events! Presumably your thin dotted arrow is Cox sized...

 

I'm struggling to work out what the dotted line from a Drummond T14 to a Lord Nelson represents - precious little influence of one on the other, I'd have thought? If you were thinking about influence, couldn't you make a stronger case for a Lord Nelson being third cousin once removed from a Churchward Star? Four cylinder divided drive, superheated Belpaire boiler, but with the added Maunsell-isms of more accessible valve gear and Midland-derived styling.

(FWIW, Holcroft notes that he arranged for James Clayton to have footplate trips on a GWR Castle and an LNER A1 prior to deciding definitively to proceed with a 4-6-0 and not a 4-6-2).

Tom

 

I can't remember any more what that was for, but vague memories of a T14 being modified to test the 135 degree four cylinder layout?
Lost from my memory if not. Was done long ago!

 

Ah yes - when you do all locos, you can add a dotted line from the Ivatt Big Atlantic to the Bulleid Leader then

Tom

 

FWIW, I tend to be fairly minimalist on the question of how much the LN inspired the Scots (in detail, clearly they were part of a wider move towards powerful six coupled locos).

I say this as someone who things Maunsell is the most underrated CME in British loco history.

 

So an illustration of the "multiple thread" influence my diagrams are supposed to demonstrate would be the LMS Duchesses.

The simplistic history is that they are an upgraded Lizzie, and that the Lizzie is just a stretched King. Hence: almost pure Swindon.

But of course it's much more interesting than that. In fact the Duchesses were designed mainly by Coleman (ex-NSR) while Stanier was away in India. Stanier of course would have given him instructions. They incorporated the different cylinder/valve gear arrangement from the Lizzies, which was based partly on that of the Hughes superheated Dreadnaughts (first Horwich influence).

The boiler on the Lizzies had been a stretched Swindon boiler with a massive grate for the more onerous duties. Of course it had given problems and been internally redesigned based on... Hughes boilers from Horwich, by Coleman.

From memory, the trailing wheels, some frame details, and some other aspects were based on the abortive Fowler compound pacific project (Derby with a bit of Horwich via the original Hughes pacific concept).

They were designed at Derby and built at Crewe, a works operating on principles originally laid down by Webb and revitalised by Beames (ex-LNWR).

I've not been able to detect much Caledonian, LTSR or Highland influence in them, but otherwise they had a pretty wide ancestry across the LMS as well as the obvious GW influence?

 

All very good - but the LNER doesn't end with Gresley...!

 

Them's fighting words Andrew. E***** T*******...!

 

Well, of course it wasn't Stanier's job to design locomotives, he had a drawing office for that. Holcroft tells us how the ex LSWR drawing office tended to revert to Urie when not carefully monitored, and I think Stanier had similar problems with the LMS drawing office. He at least largely managed to get people pointing in the same direction, which was vital step forward.

There's not much doubt in my mind that the LMS draughtsmen didn't always appreciate the subtleties of what they were looking at. Cook tells an amusing tale. When the GWR introduced felt lubrication of big ends it was felt essential to prevent drivers from putting in trimmings, so they put in a little fluted plug to make it impossible, and called it a restrictor. Some time later an ex GWR apprentice who had moved to the LMS was back in Swindon, and informed his former colleagues that the LMS team had made careful tests, and the restrictor didn't make any difference to oil flow at all. He was promptly informed that it wasn't supposed to!

 

Not a T14. It was 449 (the 2nd) which was a P14. It was also superheated, in a last gasp attempt to make a silk purse from a sow's ear. It was then due for scrapping, and anyway, what could you do to one of Mr Drummond's 4-6-0's that wouldn't be an improvement?
Pat

 

I thought Drummond's 4-6-0s all emerged brand new from Eastleigh due for scrapping ...

Tom

 

A possible, if tenuous, link may be possible between the Caley and the South Western, post the demise of Mr Drummond. RW Urie's wife was a Chalmers although what, if any, relation she was to R or W Chalmers I do not know.
Also, Jock Finlayson was recruited to Eastleigh from North British where some of the Indian locos originated. (The frame joggle behind the cylinders of the Urie classes is a legacy of this.)
Pat

 

Ah, yes. I wonder whether I never finished that bit, or it got deleted by accident?

As anyone who's seen my postings on other threads will know, my own preferences are Crimson Lake (Black before grouping) and so this was mainly me thinking about people associated with Horwich, Crewe, Derby, St Rollox, and Lochgorm. The other bits may be tenuous!

 

Robert Urie's son David Chalmers Urie was the last CME of the Highland and went on to serve the LMS.

 

John Chester Craven appears to be about the only CME who was in post for a significant period of time who influenced and taught no one of note.

 

That's not a complete list of CMEs of course. Cudworth was in office for even longer than Craven but not shown on that chart.

I think with the very early CMEs, in essence they each built up from scratch systems of locomotive construction, maintenance and operation, on the basis of very little prior art. In the main they could rely on a number of private locomotive building companies to provide more or less stock designs, but they were learning from scratch how to run and maintain fleets on ever increasing scales. In turn, those practises passed down to scores of others who fanned out across operational and design roles, often across the world. So I wouldn't underestimate the contribution made by that generation of early locomotive superintendents: they set in place the traditions and practises that in many cases lasted over a hundred years - Craven amongst them, along with Gooch, Cudworth, Fletcher, McConnell, Francis Trevithick and others.

Tom

 

. . . and became a real pain in the ars . . . - side to Stanier!

 

So perhaps that's the link from the Drummonds to the Duchess!

 

From certain accounts, not an unduly difficult position for some to find themselves in. Stanier never strikes me as someone who suffered fools gladly, if at all!

 

Have you ever met anyone who did suffer fools gladly?