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LMS Black 5 5025

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by FastFlyingSteam, Aug 10, 2010.

  1. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    Thank you Tom - indeed, that was my point. And of course, by all means make engineering improvements. I wasn't criticising that, just curious as to why one loco type which worked out of the box perfectly gets overlooked by the vast majority of the railway community, and two classes which didn't get accolades.

    Please don't get me wrong gents - I actually love the Jubilees and the 5MTs - indeed I've modelled a fair few myself. If you were going to ask me what Stanier loco gets the nod from me - quite frankly - it's one of these:

    [​IMG]

    My personal favourite of Stanier's loco classes.

    Apologies for veering us very much off thread - the work being done on 5025 should be the focus, and I must say, she looks bonny!
     
  2. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    An absolutely fair point: which I hope you will note I quite agree with! My point was about "working straight out of the box" which the Thompson B1 did. Very few accolades come their way though by comparison.
     
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  3. LMS2968

    LMS2968 Part of the furniture

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    I think our thoughts are closer than appearances suggest, Simon. Absolutely agree about the 8Fs being among Stanier's finest, and I have sneaking regard for the B1s, very underrated, I've always thought.

    I remember reading, but can't remember where, of a conversation between a driver and fireman on the footplate of an LNER engine at Nottingham. The fireman pointed to a brand new B1 and asked what it was, having never seen one before. The driver told him, and pointed across to a Black Five in another platform, then added, "It's as good as anything they've got, and the stuff they have is good." I was always impressed with the B1s after that.

    But as others have said, we really should get back to 5025!
     
  4. W.Williams

    W.Williams Well-Known Member

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    One extra cylinder for 4.5% additional tractive effort over a black 5 looks a lot like a huge amount of additional complication for a very marginal return on investment.
    Yes, I appreciate cylinders and tractive effort are not linear.
    Are those drivers just too big for that cylinder stroke...? 6'9" for a 26" stroke whereas the Black 5 has a 28" stroke on a smaller wheel.

    Has anyone ever suggested the 8F could just as easily have GWR on the tender...?
     
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  5. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    ..... and lived to tell the tale? ;)
     
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  6. LMS2968

    LMS2968 Part of the furniture

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    I don't know, but GWR fireman and later signalman, Harold Gasson, said the 8Fs were the best engines to come out of Swindon works!
     
  7. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    You've got to wonder what might've been had Stanier's coronation taken place in Swindon, rather than Crewe. As the most often compared, is there much difference, time-wise, between prepping and disposing a 49xx and a Black5?
     
  8. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Not if the sheds have agreed piece work rates for the job :rolleyes:

    Tom
     
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  9. ruddingtonrsh56

    ruddingtonrsh56 Member

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    I don't remember seeing that and I've got 3 of his books... from what I remember his sentiments were more along the lines of "We can accept the 8Fs because we can see the lineage from our beloved 28s, and as such we can accept the weird quirks of the LMS, but a 28 is still better"... Unless I've either completely misremembered his books or he wrote that particular comment about the 8Fs elsewhere. I can certainly remember a chapter that is basically explaining how the Granges were perfect, so I'd have said he would claim they were the best of the Swindon products...
     
  10. std tank

    std tank Part of the furniture

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    The possible reason there was so little said about the B1s could be the amount of praise heaped on the Gresley V2s.
     
  11. Matt37401

    Matt37401 Nat Pres stalwart

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    I also wonder if it’s because we have 18 Black 5’s with us and only 2 B1’s? We all know about one Black 5’s owners rather vocal views on them. Could this be something to do with it?
     
  12. LMS2968

    LMS2968 Part of the furniture

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    It was a magazine article he did for, if memory serves, Steam World. It wasn't a magazine I usually bought, then or now, but I did buy that copy. Alas, I didn't keep it so can't give the date, but probably twenty or more years ago.

    I too thought it was strange as I've also read his books, and it didn't fit the pattern. But that's what he said!
     
  13. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    :) .... and across today's sheds? Put it this way, Tom, which would you rather have to face at either end of a shift (keeping in mind it's an 'either/or, meaning your beloved Wainwrights aren't an option!) ?
     
  14. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    OK, it was a semi-facetious comment, but with the serious point behind that the management generally allowed fixed times for p&d activities - so in the days of full employment, a labour saving device didn't actually benefit the bottom line unless you could introduce sufficient locos with the device to put across an entire link; and negotiate a reduction in allowed time for the p&d tasks. As the labour situation got worse, and particularly post war, that was no longer necessarily true. (And even on a heritage line, we at least allow the same preparation time for all locos, but what is sometimes a stretch on an S15 is easy on a BR Standard).

    In modern conditions: I've never been on a Hall and my one experience of a Black 5 was brief and I think not a good example of the class. But in general, the absolutely worst job for a fireman is throwing the smokebox out at the end of the day; and the second worst is throwing the old fire out at the beginning of the day. So anything to make those tasks easier - an effective rocking grate, hopper ashpan and ashpan spray go a long way to making the morning easier; not much you can do about the smokebox inspection. That does depend on those devices working properly, of course - not always a given in the harsh environment they have to exist in. Of locos I have been on, if I wanted an easy day it would be an 80000 tank any day of the week. Not the most exciting, but far and away the easiest loco to be on, and it will do pretty much anything you ask - heavy loads are fine; but a light load doesn't burn much coal if you so choose, plus the cab is comfortable and roomy. If I had fireman as a job, that would be what you would want. Probably the worst thing you can say about an 80000 from a fireman's point of view is that the bunker doors are crap, and the smokebox door is a poor design, but that is true on all Standards I think. (Like most locos, they would be better with Southern pattern couplings with the extra link). Amongst standards, I'd certainly prefer an 80000 to a 73000 - less effort to get the same result at heritage line speeds and weight.

    Tom
     
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  15. peckett

    peckett Member

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    Cant see the https,but this was done by Mr Riddles for BR top men to decide what livery to use on mixed traffic locos'. I think there was a run past at Kensington. Black 45225 won the day. One I know had the livery for sometime at least to 1953, cant remember the number ,but it was a 2A Rugby engine and worked a Northampton to Nottingham train via Wellingboro', Manton ,and returned via Leicester. Rugby had a large allocation of 5s and with extensive diagrams ,it didn't repeat very often This one was what I would describe as pea green, maybe SR green.
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2021
  16. W.Williams

    W.Williams Well-Known Member

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    Stretching the comparison made above.

    V2 18.5" x 26", 33730 lbf
    B1 20" x 26", 26878 lbf
    Black 5 18.5" x 28" 25455 lbf
    5XP 17" x 26, 26610 lbf

    Not a totally fair comparison, but in terms 3 cyl v 2 cyl, thats not a competition at all and in fact the Jub looks positively 5xxp! On paper not even a match for a B1, a poverty post war design!

    V2 is a full 25% more powerful than a B1, where as the Jub is a mere 4.5% over the Black 5.

    To put it another way, a Jub is 22% less effective than a V2! That's not great.

    I appreciate they are not the same class etc, but come on?!

    For all that extra motion,upkeep,oiling etc, you are far better off with a Black 5 or even a B1.

    Also, its telling that the Jub has the narrowest cylinders of the bunch at 17". Swept volume is one thing, but cylinder diameter (effective cross sectional area) is a huge part of the power equation.
     
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  17. LMS2968

    LMS2968 Part of the furniture

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    We're not back to the Nominal Tractive Effort equals power output fallacy again, are we?
     
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  18. W.Williams

    W.Williams Well-Known Member

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    No not at all, its just an on paper comparison of the serious and highly questionable deficiencies of a 5xp against some comparative peers.
     
  19. LMS2968

    LMS2968 Part of the furniture

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    It just seemed a strange thing to write. I'm sure you know that Nominal T.E. has little practical application; the nearest it gets to being of any value is as a rough guide to sorts of load an engine might get on the move from stationary. Once the train starts to move, it has no use at all. The 5Xs and Black 'uns would need to start the same sort of weights, so similar T.Es. is understandable. It's what happens when on the move and speed has risen which is important with an express loco. Condemning or praising a particular class on the basis of a meaningless calculated figure just sounded odd.
     
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  20. W.Williams

    W.Williams Well-Known Member

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    If nominal TE has little practical application, what is a better metric for comparison?
     
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