Re: Park Royal class 103 preservation

Park Royal class 103 preservation

News on M50397

The Park Royal class 103 M50397 was to leave the premises of T.D. Williams Fabian Way Swansea at the begining of March but as was said in the 45.015 thread on 'Railchat' *

http://railchat.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic. ... 1&start=20

the people at Great Yeldham in Essex are doing some essential work (two of the bus men are installing a three phase power supply and new lighting in the road vehicle stabling bays) so the buses and trucks have spread across the floor space onto the railway vehicle area whilst they do this work.

Like all volunteer transport preservation groups they can't demand that the members installing the power / lighting GET ON HURRY UP THEIR WORK.

Furthermore it has been decided by the people at Great Yeldham that laying track with sleepers and base plates would create an obstruction to both visitors and vehicle movements in the hangar. The people at Great Yeldham have therefore obtained 720ft of FB rail which is to be fixed to the floor using tye rods and rag bolts.

The Bus department leader is the member who will drill and fit the tye bars onto the rails once the other work is complete. I have been told verbally that, until this is done, the people at Great Yeldham cannot put any more rail vehicles in to the shed at Great Yeldham because they cannot unload any more vehicles inside the shed, they will have to be unloaded outside of the shed and towed in to the shed.

So the departure of the vehicle M50397 from the premises of T.D. Williams Fabian Way Swansea has been delayed until the last week in March.

T.D. Williams themselves are vacating the land at Fabian Way Swansea in mid -March and I and they do not know what the new leaseholder or the landowner will say about the above delay.

[This is merely my personal opinion, butt the above circumstances may mean we have to move M50397 in a hurry somewhere i.e. to a hauliers yard somewhere then move it on when the new premises is complete this I am aware has been done on a number of occasions. Does anybody know more here?.]

I am very encouraged by the escalating number of people reading the postings on the vehicles. This to my mind does indicate a significent level of interest in the vehicles.

The cost of transport from Swansea to Great Yeldham will be £1670 plus 15% VAT is £1925 (unless anyone can 'beat' this quote?)

Obviously if M50397 has to be dropped off anywhere then the cost will rise - up to 80% more in fact...

For those who are 'interested' in the future of this vehicle, donations towards the transport costs of the move from Swansea to Great Yeldham (or if this figure has been reached, the astronomical restoration costs) of this vehicle would be very welcome.

Mr Richard Thornton has said on many occasions that he has acquired some Leyland 0.680 diesel engines from scrapped class 101 diesel units in 2003 - 2004. But he has also said to me in letters sent to me from the prison that he fears that some people may have taken the opportunity of his imprisonment to 'help themselves' to these and other parts stored at Bodfari. If some people may have taken the opportunity of Mr Thornton's imprisonment to 'help themselves' to parts then M50397 will also need some Leyland 0.680 diesel engines and R14 gearboxes and final drives as well.

For more info go to http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/ParkRoyal103/

Or pm me

News on M56160

Mr Thornton has told people that when he is released from prison he wants to resume work on M56160 again. He has already significently cleaned up the vehicle and glazed it.

The problem is that the land at Bodfari is being sold to meet the requirements of a 'Proceeds of Crime Act' hearing held in Northwest (Mold Crown Court (?) at the begining of the year so it may may be that a new home may be required for M56160 if the land is sold - unless either Mr Thornton keeps the linear strip of land beside the council plant nursery at Bodfari that the vehicle is parked on, which is seperate from the extensive fields or the landowner agrees to let M56160 stay there until a new home can be found and the council are happy with it there.

Can anybody suggest anywhere that M56160 can go to. It still has blue asbestos in the bodyshell, BUT I am liasing with HLF about a grant to remove the blue asbestos material.

Yours

Alfred.

*by one of the men there who is far senior to I and is actually connected to it there, I am not

 

Of, like any sane person, we could steer well clear of your various projects.

 

Your asking for help to move a couple of rail vehicles owned by a man who is currently in prison?!!!!

A brilliant way to appeal for help. [-( [-( [-(

 

Well the alternative to removing these vehicles from where they are is that they are cut up with a lot of bad publicity created in the process for various reasons.

 

Alfred you have mentioned previously that the vehicles are full of blue asbestos. I would assume that this would have to be removed before they could be removed either that or the vehicles proffesionally sealed. Both of which costs a huge amount.

You also mention that it is possible that the vehicles may have undergone "component recovery" whilst they have been stood where they are.

You have also stated either here or on your website or on the preserved diesels forum that the vehicles are structurally in a bad way.

The vehicles by your own admission are effectively where they are on "squatters" rights and their owner is in prision.

You have not stated whether you are in direct contact with the owner, or if you are doing this with his permission?

I will also say IMHO that the HLF will not touch this project as its caught up in a minefield of politics. As well as being owned by a private individual, all lottery candidates must be owned by a group / charity etc

Are you at liberty to say what the owner is in prision for?

Can you also answer why he cant pay for the decontamination and subsequent removal of the vehicles himself?

I would not touch this project if i were you because you could potentially land yourself in some very hot water. You also must consider at what point does it become a restoration project too far?

saving these vehicles to prevent bad PR is not justification to save them. They are in a very bad way maybe its best for all to get them cut and distribute the spares around the groups that can use them

 

Matthew - this link may answer a few of your questions - http://www.newswales.co.uk/?section=Community&F=1&id=13876

I don't know enough about the historical interest in the relevant vehicles, but there would need to be a very definite change of ownership before anyone with sense commits any funds to them.

 

Many thanks for that 6024KEI.

This looks more crooked by the minute.

 

Alfred Roberts, resident engineer on the Great Indian Peninsula Railway;

nah just co-incidence...

seriously, noone in their right mind will get involved in funding a project owned by someone in jail for a major fraud.I even heard about this case in Ireland!

 

A quick google of his name will provide all the back ground info you need.

 

I will reply to your comments when I have more time, but things are happening as we speak in some quarters.

Alfred

 

Don't bother.

 

Anyone small a rat here? i most certainally do

 

In reply:

The proposed movement of the class 103 power car from Swansea to Great Yeldham in Essex is proposed to be undertaken by the Museum of Transport in Essex - Essex Transport Museum Society which has no connection to Mr Thornton. Mr Thornton has approved the move and knows of and has approved of my posting these pieces.

Pictures:

The power car at Swansea:
http://www.vintagecarriagestrust.org/se ... p?Ref=1995
http://www.freewebs.com/class103m50397pics/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/31318026@N02/

The trailer at Bodfari:
http://daves-trains.fotopic.net/p54155947.html
http://daves-trains.fotopic.net/p54155942.html (Oct 09 2008)
http://philspics.fotopic.net/p47139964.html
http://philspics.fotopic.net/p47116406.html (Dec 09 2007)
http://www.vintagecarriagestrust.org/se ... p?Ref=2026 (Oct 12 2005)
http://www.railcar.co.uk/pics/Preserved ... mar03b.jpg
http://www.railcar.co.uk/pics/Preserved ... mar03a.jpg (23 March 2003)

The power car at Swansea has largely been stripped of blue asbestos (remains in the heating ducts in the front of the vehicle) but the trailer at Bodfari has not been largely been stripped of blue asbestos because the blue asbestos glue based compound remains in the heating ducts behind the heaters, behind thin panels at intervals along the steel bodyshell and exposed blue asbestos fireproofing paint product remains underneath the wooden floor.

VAT Fraud:

http://nds.coi.gov.uk/content/detail.as ... earch=True
http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-w ... -20732905/
http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-w ... -20803616/
http://www.dofonline.co.uk/tax/vat-offi ... fraud.html
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales ... -20803957/

Proceeds of Crime Act:

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-w ... -22501760/

I think these words may well speak for themselves. Some people may have a different opinion to yours or Mr Thornton's. Perhaps the answer is that Museum of Transport in Essex - Essex Transport Museum Society takes ownership of the vehicle(s).

If the power car cannot be moved from Swansea then perhaps the answer is to use it for spare parts for the trailer at Bodfari and the Helston Railway Diesel Group's class 103 two - car unit. As you can see in one of the above articles, the land that the trailer at Bodfari is on is to be sold soon, so a search for a new home may soon be underway.

Is it legal to move a vehicle with exposed asbestos beneath it (be it white asbestos - matting or taping - pipe lagging around steam heating pipes or blue asbestos - fireproofing paint - beneath the wooden floor) by road on a lorry?

Yours,

Alfred.

 

I dont believe it is legal, too greater risk of disturbing the asbestos and it contaminating the area.

Seriously though Alred if i were you i would wring your hands of the whole affair there are too many unknowns. Its a matter for the vehicles owners to sort out

 

i could envisage you getting into deep hot water if you try moving them and the same goes for parts removal Id suggest. You need advice from a H&S expert...

 

Shackerstone - Wales Park Royal 103 - (soon to be Essex Park Royal 103) news

M50397
Essex Transport Museum Society has told me verbally that they are waiting for a date from the hauliers for the movement of the vehicle from Swansea to Great Yeldham to take place, that they are in contact with TD Williams and that they are putting pressure on certain bus owners at Great Yeldham to move their vehicles out of the way.

If anybody wants more details I would like to suggest that you contact steigertrak2@yahoo.com

M56160

Before Mr Thornton went to prison last year he did a lot of cosmetic work on M56160; vis a vis re - glazing all of the drop lights with BR standard droplights, re - glazing the sliding lights with 101 units (which will fit a 103 and a 109), re – glazing most main panes with 4 mm plain glass; painting and lettering the sole bar and painting the front and rear buffer beams red, painting the jumper boxes white; and planned to replace the running boards with oak, repaint the body shell and complete re – glazing as next priorities. He planned to resume work when he was released.

Whilst the HM Revenue and Customs Proceeds of Crime Act investigation was underway and Mr Thornton was in prison Denbighshire County Council Planning Enforcement officers held off formal enforcement procedures. Besides these circumstances Mr Thornton was in prison and I was trying to secure the movement of the vehicle from Bodfari (see e – mails copied in to the group last summer).

M56160 was under threat after the outcome of the Proceeds of Crime Act investigation at Mold Crown Court on 17 December 2008, because the land at Bodfari was to be sold to re – pay the money stolen by Mr Thornton from HMRC in 2005. However because the planning enforcement issues relating to the linear strip of land along the old railway track bed beside the Denbighshire County Council at Bodfari were placing the proposed sale of the remainder of the land at a disadvantage, this linear strip remained in Mr Thornton's ownership and only the surrounding fields were sold.

Now that Mr Thornton has been released from prison Denbighshire County Council Planning and Public Protection Services enforcement and compliance officers and the legal services department have been considering what action to take regarding the continued presence of the coach M56160 on the linear strip at Bodfari. Legal services department have been considering mounting a prosecution against Mr Thornton for failing to comply with the enforcement notice and in the latest twist to the saga the enforcement and compliance officers have asked me for details of the haulage quotes that I received in 2008 for of the vehicle M56160 from Bodfari to Great Yeldham (where it could join M50397) because they are considering taking action to remove M56160 and other items from the linear strip.

The response of John Owens (Mr Thornton's solicitor) to the enforcement and compliance officer request to come up with some firm proposals to remove the vehicle M56160 from Bodfari has allegedly been to say that the weight of the vehicle (60 tons – is this including the transporter?) means that it is too difficult to move it out across the open fields between the linear strip and the farm track which leads up a slope to the A541 road.

In a letter to Mr Thornton on 15 May 2009, I did suggest applying for Lawful Development Certificate for Existing Use (Section 191 Planning Permission) for the storage of M56160 at Bodfari. This would be based on the fact that it was cited at the appeal hearing in 2003 that the linear strip of land has been used as storage since 1997 – 98 when two old lorry containers were placed there and removed `a few years later', (which cannot have been long before the Denbigh and Mold Junction Railway Society occupied the land in March 2001) which means that the land has been in use for `storage' for over ten years, (with only a short break in use) which is a reason for applying for a Lawful Development Certificate for an Existing Use (Section 191 Planning Permission) marked on the application form, with allowance for a break in use.

A more serious obstacle to the vehicle's movement is presented by the presence of blue asbestos paint product painted beneath the wooden floor and exposed to the open air (fireproofing and soundproofing material dating from the 1950s). I am under the impression that it is illegal to move any vehicle by lorry along a public road, which has exposed fibrous asbestos (this includes white asbestos matting or tape as steam heating pipe lagging or blue asbestos paint product as fireproofing and soundproofing).

Within the steel body shell of M56160; blue asbestos also remains between the side windows, beneath cab windows and around the rear of the vehicle (behind thin steel panels); behind the big steel skirting boards behind box sections behind the heaters; above toilet water tank (behind the foam squirted between water tank and roof apex to seal it) and above the fluted aluminium cab ceiling panels.

If M56160 was to be removed from Bodfari then removing the exposed blue asbestos paint product from beneath the vehicle will be necessary before the vehicle can be moved by road, especially if it was proposed the vehicle be moved into the shed at Great Yeldham and this will be a very expensive process. The only way I can see this being paid for is via an HLF grant.

The response of the council planning and compliance officer when I sent in a document with photos of the blue asbestos beneath and inside M56160 was to show the material to their pollution people.

The council has asked before about the possibility of removing the vehicle from Bodfari. Either removal to storage at Long Marston Exchange Sidings or scrapping (undefined) were mentioned. I was actually involved in getting a quote from Motorail Logistics for storage at Long Marston in late – 2005. When Mr Northfield and myself discussed bringing M50397 to Long Marston Exchange Sidings in early – 2006 with the Stratford – Broadway Railway Society (SBRS) the discussions did not reach as far as M56160.

Obviously the very last thing I would like is to see the vehicle scrapped, and various people have suggested new homes for it at locations such as the vehicle joining M50397 at Great Yeldham Transport Museum in Essex, Cambrian Railway Trust (Llynclys), Whitwell and Reepham, Epping Ongar Railway (at North weald or Ongar along a 6 mile line), or at Helston Diesel group – Helston Railway (Traverno); or Mr Thornton suggested asking the Birkenhead Tramway Museum (but somebody said this does not have a very good track record when it comes to rail vehicles).