If you register, you can do a lot more. And become an active part of our growing community. You'll have access to hidden forums, and enjoy the ability of replying and starting conversations.

Swanage Railway General Discussion

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by Rumpole, Oct 10, 2012.

  1. 80104

    80104 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2020
    Messages:
    679
    Likes Received:
    451
    Location:
    a small town in germany
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    We will see.
    I note the reference to the five Mark One coaches and there in a nutshell is one of the issues that concerns me. SR received £1M to refurbish the DMUs to mainline standards to operate the Wareham service. They have built the facility at Corfe Castle Station to service the DMUs. This too cost good money.
    Why havent they simply used the mainlined Class 33, the five mainlined Mk 1 carriages and the mainlined U Class 31806 to operate the service rather than spend a small fortune on the DMUs which by their own admission* are worth far less than the cost of refurbishing to mainline standards?
    *Annual Accounts YE 2021.
    I also note the reference to the "lot of research". Is this research publicly available or published by SR?
     
  2. D1039

    D1039 Guest

    An alternative is that SR and the council theoretically could agree to vary the 2014 agreement’s requirement for a 90 day trial. Life’s moved on and, were it to be forecast that it would lose a lot of money, the two might think it’s not the best idea to force the SR to weaken its financial position?

    Patrick


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
    Bluenosejohn likes this.
  3. johnofwessex

    johnofwessex Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2015
    Messages:
    9,186
    Likes Received:
    7,226
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Thorn in my managers side
    Location:
    72
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    1. No need torun a DMU round
    2. With 4 engines and most other critical components duplicated the risk of being broken down on the mainline is significantly reduced compared with most other options
     
  4. Paul.Uni

    Paul.Uni Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2008
    Messages:
    1,284
    Likes Received:
    584
    All of the following is based on my understanding of what has previously been posted in this thread. So apologies for anything I've misunderstood or missed.

    When the Wareham project was started, Mark 1 carriages were going to be banned from the national network. As the DMUs are not Mark 1 based, they were not going to be banned, so could be used. Which is why Swanage have funding to restore and use the DMUs for the Wareham services.

    The external funding for the getting of the U class loco and 5 Mark 1 carriages to be able to run on the national network is separate to the Wareham Project. The carriages do not currently have secondary door locks so can't be used on passenger services to Wareham at the moment.

    The use of the Mark 1 carriages would also require the train to top and tailed as there is nowhere to run round at Wareham. With only two main line registered locos at Swanage (one of which is currently at Eastleigh under repair) means there are no spare locos to operate the Wareham services when things go wrong.

    Sent from my SM-A125F using Tapatalk
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2021
  5. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2006
    Messages:
    11,930
    Likes Received:
    10,088
    Occupation:
    Gentleman of leisure, nowadays
    Location:
    Near Leeds
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Using loco hauled stock with T&T as you suggested would require three footplate crews against one with a DMU. It would also require the provision of a standby loco in case of failure because propelling wouldn’t be allowed If you knew the problems the NYMR has in running to Whitby, you wouldn’t be advocating it. At least the NYMR benefits financially from running to Whitby.
     
  6. 61624

    61624 Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2006
    Messages:
    5,294
    Likes Received:
    3,596
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    From what I've heard, the NYMR will face more problems soon when central door locking controlled from a central point (i.e. not bolts operated by Stewards) become mandatory in a year or two. I have heard large numbers quoted for the work and no likelihood of NR paying for it, as they have done with controlled emission toilets.
     
  7. DcB

    DcB Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2018
    Messages:
    1,339
    Likes Received:
    421
    Location:
    Surrey
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    The London Underground 4TC used in 2017 had central door locking, along with WCR and other stock. It's possible that if the heritage railways produced the required door solenoids and control boxes together, and used volunteers to install and wire them, could reduce the cost.
    One of the aims back in 2016 was to run steam occasionally on the mainline with 33s and DMUs.
    https://m.facebook.com/swanagerailw...ice-to-wareham-the-historic-/991550800893484/
    This was to help promote tourism so with SWR should increase the use of the Wareham line to break even. A secondary benefit is to reduce road use and congestion.
     
  8. Gladiator 5076

    Gladiator 5076 Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2015
    Messages:
    6,078
    Likes Received:
    4,893
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Swanage
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    A few since 80078's arrival last Friday.
    On shed Friday evening, it was of course turned the following day.
    Harmans Cross yesterday through the wild flowers.
    Townsend Bridge and the last service arriving at Swanage, and the loco on shed today.
    Typically I was not available on the two days the sun shone. IMG_7260.JPG IMG_7264.JPG IMG_7282c.jpg IMG_7293.JPG IMG_7299.JPG
     
    buzby2, gz3xzf and Johnme101 like this.
  9. biggles200

    biggles200 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2007
    Messages:
    328
    Likes Received:
    237
    Occupation:
    retired and holding on
    Location:
    Purbeck
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
  10. 80104

    80104 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2020
    Messages:
    679
    Likes Received:
    451
    Location:
    a small town in germany
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    From the PCRP website. "A regular rail passenger train service from Swanage to Wareham has been an aspiration of many people for many years. The original line connecting the towns was closed in 1972, and the Purbeck Community Rail Partnership comprising local councils, businesses and rail organisations have been working together since 1997 to make this dream a reality."

    The issue is that time is passing by and SR have yet to operate the second year trial service. The question has to be asked why they didnt operate the second year in 2018 using hired in rolling stock?.
     
  11. 5914

    5914 New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2007
    Messages:
    175
    Likes Received:
    520
    I think the answer to the question is that it was known that the pilot in 2017 was not financially successful. The reason that the 2018 trial did not take place was widely covered in the specialist and local press at the time - it was not viable in the previous format (let alone an increase to lower traffic days). The overall purpose of the pilots was not to have a service to Swanage in 2017 and 2018, but to test the viability of a long-term service and make sure the operational and financial model was sustainable. The second year trial was contingent on the viability of the first year - hence the fact that the first year was more limited in scope. The results from 2017 provided evidence that operating the service using hired in stock and a third-party operator was not viable, and that none of the partners were able to contemplate funding a service that would be known to require additional external funds.

    My understanding, from the information that was available at the time, is that this led to pursuing the path of SR becoming the operator - with a (hopefully) lower cost base. However, the regulatory requirements to do this could not be put in place before everything became more complicated with the arrival of COVID in 2020 (regulatory focus, energy and resource being focused on sorting out the various messes within the franchised operations during 2018/19!). To have gone ahead with the 2018 trial on the same basis as 2017 would have had the inevitable conclusion that the Wareham to Swanage service was not viable - and that would have been the end of aspirations for anything but occasional charters and special events. The whole point of a pilot is to test the viability of an operation - once it had been demonstrated to lack viability using that structure it would have been pointless to carry on and merely prove that running more days during less busy periods lost even more money. Far better to adjust the operational model, and seek to achieve viability for a service that could then be repeated in subsequent years.

    (The implication of the post that SR was dragging feet ignores the fact that the partnership is just that - and SR is only one of the partners - and was not able to fund the operating loss that would have resulted from running 2018 as an expanded version of 2017. As a result of the past two years, I cannot see that it is in any better position to take such revenue risk now than it was then - and that is a matter for all partners to consider, before one member of the partnership incurs all the operational financial risk)
     
  12. 80104

    80104 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2020
    Messages:
    679
    Likes Received:
    451
    Location:
    a small town in germany
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    It just seems somewhat odd that the loss of C£100K on a 90 day trial service is baulked at (principally caused by the hiring in fees) and yet over £1M has been spent on the DMUs specifically for the Wareham service.

    Obviously the hired in operator had all the necessary licences etc and had mainline insurance (ie a contribution to those costs was included in the hiring in fee). The cost of obtaining the licence and the mainline insurance has to be born by SR for their own operation.

    I cant help but feel that it will take many years of Wareham service for the total costs of hiring in to have been greater than the total cost of SR operating it when all the costs incurred by SR including capital expenditure on assets are taken into account.
     
  13. DcB

    DcB Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2018
    Messages:
    1,339
    Likes Received:
    421
    Location:
    Surrey
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Presuming Covid is under control in 2022, the DMU is working well, there are enough trained volunteers, SWR restores the Wareham timetable and will promote the trial with offers, the insurance is paid and the paperwork to become a TOC is done, hopefully the updated business case might show the 90 day trial service as being viable, but so far no update from the Wareham Project or the PCRP? The last meeting notes say "STC (Swanage Town Council) remained fully supportive of SR and its plans for operating to Wareham" (edited)
    Ideally if the trial starts April 2022 there is time to do it?
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2021
  14. Gladiator 5076

    Gladiator 5076 Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2015
    Messages:
    6,078
    Likes Received:
    4,893
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Swanage
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    I sense a profitable trial is more likely than Covid under control in 2022, but we shall see. Still trains seem to have been very full this week from my observations and feedback from my dad using his season ticket, so many may not give a toss about Covid (the UK view I believe). It does appear there is a lot of it about in Swanage at the moment though.
     
  15. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    Messages:
    26,103
    Likes Received:
    57,432
    Location:
    LBSC 215
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    That's a lot of presumption ...

    Tom
     
    Bluenosejohn likes this.
  16. DcB

    DcB Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2018
    Messages:
    1,339
    Likes Received:
    421
    Location:
    Surrey
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    All do able!
     
  17. Bikermike

    Bikermike Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2020
    Messages:
    1,442
    Likes Received:
    1,595
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Thameslink territory
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Really? Looking forward to you controlling Covid...
     
  18. Jupiter

    Jupiter New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2020
    Messages:
    114
    Likes Received:
    64
    Location:
    Dorset
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Isn’t this just a basic decision every business faces, capital vs revenue expenditure? Seems like the revenue expense version didn’t work so let’s try the other one?
     
  19. 80104

    80104 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2020
    Messages:
    679
    Likes Received:
    451
    Location:
    a small town in germany
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Well yes but in this case the £100K was Swanage Railway's "own" money and the £1M was taxpayers money held by Dorset (County) Council.

    The issue to me is if the Wareham service requires considerable revenue support and Dorset Council et al are not prepared to provide it (for future years) then the £1M DMus will prove to have been a hugely expensive white elephant: delivered late, exceeded budget and for a purpose that has ceased to exist.

    Indeed separating out the issues the real concern is surely with the DMUs and not the Wareham service per se.
     
  20. Jupiter

    Jupiter New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2020
    Messages:
    114
    Likes Received:
    64
    Location:
    Dorset
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Which is why everyone needs to accept “it is what it is” and get behind the project rather than moaning about it, criticising it and predicting its failure at every opportunity.

    It’s clear there’s a weight of opinion behind a mixed main line steam/class 33 solution. We have to hope that weight isn’t so great it drowns the Wareham project and that, frankly, is in everyone’s hands.
     
    Andy Moody likes this.

Share This Page