Bluebell Railway General Discussion

From memory, there was a disparity between the perceived liquid content of the side mounted storage facilities on Knowle, and the actual contents.....

 

As opposed to today's fares policy being set by money grabbing ministers under the guise of RPI or CPI whichever suits them, plus a sop (at least until the Treasury gets it way) of some TOC offered non regulated fares!

 

As a driver, years of experience tells me that nothing beats lifting the lid and having a look, see. And, alas, that doesn't mean relying on the fireman to do it, especially with a tank loco and a balance pipe.

 

Without wishing to start another pointless livery debate, I must declare my preference for LSWR livery, preferably Drummond's style, and with a beautiful rake of salmon and brown semi-elliptical-roofed coaches to run with it. Save LNWR black for Crewe-built engines!

 

This elegant engine would look good in any livery - well, within reason! Rather than worrying about the colour of paint, to me the main thing is that it would be good to see it back in steam again after what must be well over 30 years.

 

Whilst I wholly agree with John, the only chance of 488 ever running again is if the BRPS or the Trust are given a large sum specifically for the purpose. It is of very little financial benefit for the PLC to fund it as the return against the investment is poor, they will get better value by overhauling a more modern locomotive for less money. I fear smaller locos and not just at the Bluebell have become increasingly less useful and if a case cannot be made for 488 then the NLR and USA tanks have no chance, and what do you do with 3 Ps and 2 Terriers, sentiment alone is keeping them going.

There is a fairly fundamental change happening in heritage railways as the nostalgia generation ages and has a decreasing involvement, the idea of preservation is quite quickly evolving into a tourist day out which might sadden me but is I feel inevitable. The obvious sign of this at the Bluebell is that Sheffield Park has become an industrial estate, Horsted Keynes is catching it up fast and if development to the west of the station is allowed it will complete the process, Kingscote might just remain as somewhere that has been preserved, and the less said about East Grinstead the better. I am not for one moment decrying individuals efforts in getting to EG, but I thought it a poor idea 40 years ago and it's draw on resources has had a detrimental effect elsewhere. It would seem that the Bluebell has decided to go into the catering industry with a side interest in steam railways. One could point this accusatory finger at most of the larger long established heritage railways with equal veracity and I fully recognise that I don't have an alternative, there maybe isn't one, but it all seems a long way away from the preservation concept I embraced over 50 years ago. As it is a fair bit of preserved rolling stock over the last 60 years will never run again, look at 320.
Martin

 

Isn't restoring and such engines is what preservation is all about, not just the hard economic argument? Our heritage railway are fast becoming tourist attractions where any old steam loco will do provided it is hauling a train of coaches fit for travellers to use. That is nt what most of us whld describe as preservation

 

With railways (in common with much else) struggling for survival, what I would agree is a fine and noble sentiment, I fear is increasingly what such notions are .... sentiments.

Take dear old LSWR 488. Unfortunately, there's no cause to suppose @Martin Shaw's analysis is wrong. It's a measure of the Bluebell's success that the loco, who's Swindon overhaul in the 70s was justified by it being an "ideal size" for operations back then, is really too underpowered to be much use these days, when six, including a buffet, is commonplace in the high-season. Would it's suitability for lighter 'shoulder' loads, at quieter periods, make restoration an economically sensible proposition? Honestly, I don't have an answer.

Following comments concerning the pedigree of the 'radial', just out of interest, I looked up the Swanage's gradient profile and with a ruling 1:76, the line is little less challenging than the Bluebell.

Images of the class at work on the Lyme Regis branch (which had a 1:40 ruling grade) reveal summer trains of five (Bulleid) carriages called for double heading.

Don't misunderstand me, I'd dearly love to see 488 get the new boiler it needs to run again, but AIUI, there's quite a bit more needs doing to make the old loco fit for service again. Mention was made of the state of the wheels (I assume the drivers were meant). If that's so, would a rebuild on the scale of Welsh Pony be something Bluebell members would be happy with?

This begs the question of what preservation actually means. Consider Gladstone. Safely ensconced at York, the sole surviving (original!) LBSCR tender loco hasn't turned a wheel under it's own power in over 90 years. How many seriously suggest returning it to steam? At Swanage, had 563 not been so comprehensively repaired at Eastleigh, would we now be eagerly anticipating it's return? Is any preserved "Large 40" in as mechanically sound condition as Caerphilly Castle?

Generally speaking, I hold to "the best way of preserving something is to keep it working" school of thought, but accept that's neither always possible, nor desirable. Again, I don't claim to have "the answer". In fact, I'm pretty sure there isn't only one.

 

Maybe so but, like it or not, ultimately heritage railways have to pay their bills, just like any other business. No matter how much you might want to restore that Victorian tank engine or wooden-bodied coach, you just can't do it if the money isn't there. I suspect there are many well-meaning GMs at heritage railways, who have taken up their jobs full of loft ambitions to restore this engine or that coach; then taken one look at the balance sheet and said, "ah...I guess we'll have to stick with the industrials and Mk. 1s, then."

This is not to say that it is impossible to raise big money to do something special, but ultimately you need people who can offer both the time, and the expertise, to raise those funds. And all the indications are that there will be fewer and fewer of those in years to come. Twenty years ago, there were plenty of people who were able to take early retirement and devote time to preservation projects. Now, we're into the era of the gig economy and the side-hustle...younger people have less and less time to offer (and I include myself in that).

So, yes, it saddens me, but yes, I think we probably will see fewer and fewer of the really old and interesting locos and coaches in service as the years go by. And I guess there is an inevitability in that...any machine will get more expensive to maintain as it gets older. I was born more than twenty years after the end of steam...by the time I reach my four-score years and ten, even Evening Star will be celebrating its centenary. Fenchurch will be approaching its bicentenary...is it really realistic to expect that anyVictorian locos will still be running by then? (Unless, like the FfR's Prince, they are rebuilt until there is literally nothing of the origianl fabric left.)

Besides, nostalgia will move on with the generations. No doubt the enthusiasts of the 2060s will be frothing over preserved "Networkers" in lightly-weathered NSE livery, just as they were in the "good old days" of the 1990s. Just as the pre-grouping era is now a niche interest amidst the onslaught of BR nostalgia; by the 2060s, ANY steam locomotive will probably be considered a niche interest, and we should be grateful if there any running at all!

 

I'm not so sure. Whilst, with the world in the turmoil of a seemingly never-ending rinse-and-repeat cycle of COVID terror scenarios, it is all but impossible to see into the future, from what I've noted in the past, there seems to be a shift of focus on what is popular with the public. Anecdotally, at least from the Bluebell's POV, it's the older rolling stock which seems to be more popular, ie, given the choice, punters seem to gravitate more towards attractive liveries, varnished woodwork, and comfortable accommodation. Likewise, the enthusiast nostalgia for the BR period seemed to reach a peak in the 1990s/early 2000s, and is now manifesting itself in a resurgence of pre-grouping/ pre nationalisation liveries, as those with the memories become fewer, and market forces move towards those with no direct connection to the past, but a desire to experience it.
Heritage rail is becoming less memory-driven, and more a type of theatre in its own right, and this is what I always believed would happen, even as long as 40 years ago, basically because I was too young to remember BR steam, and used to take myself to Horsted Keynes because I hankered after immersing myself in the 1930s, instead, basically treating the station as a stage set, exactly as countless film companies have, and are, doing, and I believe that is how the visiting public will increasingly come to view the facilities of the premier heritage railways, but it must offer, as far as practicable, a genuinely immersive experience. Escapism. That is the commodity which should be on offer. "Forget the horrible, authoritarian world for a while- spend a day riding the rails in Edwardian splendour, or take a picnic lunch while savouring the sights, sounds and smells of a 1930s summer day." The popular crusade to recreate the Lynton and Barnstaple as a pre- war time capsule is a perfect example.
Thanks to the likes of "Downton", tastes are going back in time, rather than keeping pace.
But that's only my own observations.

 

There is a leisure railway which operates trains of five bogies up 1 in 68 with a small Victorian tank locomotive perfectly successfully. The same line is restoring two grounded bodies to the rails using paid and voluntary labour of all ages. This is said only to refute those who would say that such things are no longer possible.

 

It’s worth remembering that the Mets, SECR birdcage and Brighton bogie first have been in regular use all year, including forming one of the two Santa sets through December.

I have a degree of sympathy with both sides of this debate. I certainly my agree with @Mark Thompson about the high-water mark of affection for BR 1950s ethos, and the gradual desire to go backwards in time. Certainly my motivation to be involved in railway preservation is not driven by nostalgia for the railways of my youth: it is to see things I never saw, not things I did. I also think the point about immersive experiences is spot on.

I also agree though with @MuzTrem about paying the bills: fail to do that and you fail to preserve anything - simple as that. The difficulty then is going to be how you make it pay. I think the answers to that are probably going to be a mix of things enthusiasts aren’t keen on, but maybe with some they are. I think “non heritage events” for want of a better phrase will become ever more common (I mean things like more and more dining trains, SteamLights etc). The answer to that is obvious: the per mile income is very favourable, and a lot of railway operating costs are per mile. I calculated the gross income per train to run a ten mile SteamLights service and it is out of proportion to a normal operating day. There’s a risk of becoming overly reliant on a few mega events each year, but undoubtedly if you get those things right, the margin is very favourable.

What’s more favourable? There are opportunities to restore perhaps unfashionable vehicles if there is a business case. A couple of years ago Sr Van C 404 was languishing out of traffic. Someone proposed a use as a mobile generator for the film work, and that generated the case for an overhaul - serendipitously, it meant when SteamLights was proposed, we had a generator vehicle restored and ready to go. So for some locos, the case is literally what is the business case. I happen to believe that having one P or Terrier available is justified by footplate course revenue. The difficulty is that restoring one is the icing on a cake, but the presssure is always to ensure you at least have a cake to start with. The last two years have been tough in that regard: we probably should have had Fenchurch done before Bluebell bowed out, but we are where we are and I suspect the loco programme is at least a year behind where we should be, given the circumstances of the last year: it’s not just a question of money, though clearly that is important.

Tom

 

Not exactly the heaviest of bogie stock though, Paul and with (mainly) compartments and no onboard catering, it has a pretty good bums/ton ratio too!

 

All perfectly true but these are further pieces of evidence in favour of this approach.

(An opportunity Howard to wish you the compliments of the Season)

 

From what I have seen from a visitor point of view when Bluebell have operated with one vintage set and one more modern set it has seem to go down well with visitors and some will want to go on the older ones including young children and some prefer the more modern. However I think most visitors appreciate seeing both and it gives a bit of atmosphere to the railway. Rather the same comment applies to other railways which operate a mix. For a lot of people I think there is a bit of a wow factor riding behind ac100nyear old engine or sitting in a plus or near 100 year old coach.

 

Agreed ..... but this grumpy old git remains of the firm opinion cattle trucks should be restored for the transportation of rowdy sprogs (and a few of the parents of same!).

 

All true, but the IoWSR was lucky in that it started with vintage coaches bought straight out of BR service, in running condition. It has been able to build up from there. Any railway wanting to start a "vintage train" from scratch now will probably be starting with a siding full of complete wrecks. If they can get their hands on a second-hand Mk 1 or Mk 2 in reasonable condition, that will be a far easier and quicker way for them to get something up and running. And indeed, that's exactly what most heritage railways in the '70s and '80s did, when Mk 1s were still readily available out of BR service.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing against vintage coaches, I WANT to see them restored and running...but we need to be realistic about the reasons why many heritage railways have struggled to do this.

 

I think I have found the prefect thread for you.
I should know, I started it.
https://www.national-preservation.com/threads/anti-mark-ones.1420286/

 

Don't flatter yourself, the conversation had been going on long before in earlier threads.

 

Really I don't want this discussion to be IOWSR specific. Whether you start services with six pre grouping or six BR era vehicles sits apart from what gets sorted out thereafter .