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Bluebell Railway General Discussion

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by Jamessquared, Feb 16, 2013.

  1. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Ditto that, but noting comments re how lines have responded to covid, with several disparate and innovative approaches, one mentioned specifically themed offerings, beyond 'Santa Services'.

    It occurs that this may provide just the spur to restoration of several long-stored grounded bodies. In this respect, the Bluebell, IMR and IWSR (with honourable mentions due for several others) have blazed a trail. The essential consideration, beyond availability of the necessary skillset, is finding a market to give purpose to such involved and expensive restorations. Perhaps I'm being uncharacteristically optimistic, but maybe, just maybe, that market is now coming into sight?

    ..... and a very merry crimbo to you too Paul. Don't drink anything I wouldn't (pretty much just Creme de Menthe and Tomato Juice!)
     
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  2. MuzTrem

    MuzTrem Member

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    Well, I hope you're right. Time will tell!
     
  3. andrewtoplis

    andrewtoplis Well-Known Member

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    I think Paul's words are meant to illustrate that the Adams could be more useful than perhaps we have given it credit for thus far. On a line with a decent amount of lighter, wooden bodied coaches, which the bluebell is, could it fit into the vintage / secondary duty bracket? Is it that much less powerful than the (my personal favourite) the 01, which seems to be well used?
     
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  4. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    From people who went on the Adams, the consensus seems to be steamed on a candle, but could be a handful on slippery rail.

    I looked up what our sectional appendix says, and at the moment it is listed as a 150 ton load limit for passenger trains, the same as the O1 and the H class. (The E4, C and Dukedog are allowed 185). To put that in context, the Wealden Rambler and Pullman sets in recent use were both just under 140 tons, and the H and O1 got lots of use on those services, at least up to 2019. The Adams hasn't been north of Horsted Keynes though to my knowledge, so whether that figure got adjusted with experience remains to be seen. Of course, there is the small matter of restoring it first.

    My sense is that the railway has backed itself into a bit of a structural hole in that it has forgotten that it can run smaller trains. SteamLights is about 240 tons, requires frequent acceleration from walking pace to line speed on 1 in 75 gradients, and needs a Class 4+ loco. It is also sold out, so no argument about dragging round a needlessly heavy train with empty seats. So you need a Class 4+ for that (plus spare for contingency). If you want to regularly diagram 120 ton passenger trains (as we did 15 years ago), you need a class 1-2, plus spares for contingency. Then if you are short of locos, the class 4 can take the small train, but the class 1 can't take the big one - so if push comes to shove, you focus on the larger locos. And then when you have them, you end up loading all the trains to 200 tons regardless just because you can and it means you have plenty of seats on busy days. At which point it becomes a bit self-fulfilling, because the commercial department only diagram 200 ton trains and you need class 4+ locos to haul them. And then if the passenger numbers aren't there to support two six coach trains, you just run one, rather than two 4 coach trains that you could fill (which in the short term cuts your loco requirement for serviceable locos, and therefore costs).

    It's a conundrum, and one I'm not sure how you get out of in the short term, though it is also a matter of considerable debate amongst volunteers at least, or certainly those I talk to. So watch this space. What is certain is that we need to find a way to increase throughput of loco overhauls, and probably carriage maintenance as well. (By contrast - and without wishing to create a hostage to fortune - the track is getting into pretty good shape, and that between Sheffield Park and Horsted Keynes should last for decades without significant work needing to be done; the section north of Horsted House Farm crossing to the tunnel will need attention in due course).

    Tom
     
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  5. Cosmo Bonsor

    Cosmo Bonsor Member

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    "From people who went on the Adams, the consensus seems to be steamed on a candle, but could be a handful on slippery rail."

    Yep.
    It was the first engine I ever fired. I was spectacularly clueless!
    I think the big difference now in the handling of the 488 is the starts in the up direction from Horsted and Kingscote. It's pretty much straight onto the 1 in 75 from the platform ends. So only a couple of coach lengths for a run up.
    Those relatively big wheels take a bit of spinning up. That means when a big wheeled engine slips, it really goes. Rotational inertia and all that.
    The two awkward gradients going south are easy to overlook too. The little punch to the summit at Imberhorne is on a curve as is the gentler one from Ingwerson's to Dean's crossing. Dukedoggy Dog was tricky to drive round there at times.
    I wonder if the load limit quoted by Tom allows for the condition of the engine.
    That is, if it were thoroughly rebuilt could the limit be raised? I don't know.
    I didn't drive it much, but my feeling is, rather like 263, once you get it going around the low 20's mark it would be fine as long as you paid attention to the grip available. But that's just part of driving anyway.

    I hope I live long enough to find out.
     
  6. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    The Adams radial is one of the few locos that I really would like to see running. Another is the Midland compound, both locos because of their uniqueness. There are plenty of 0-6-0's, 2-6-0's, 4-6-0's, etc around which are all really very similar and give us little in the way of a different experience and understanding of them. IMHO, the one-off's of this world deserve a higher place in the restoration and use pecking order simply because they are unique and give us a different experience. There is a cost argument with 488 but is it really that valid? They are not superheated so even a new boiler is not going to be hugely expensive, even if it was to be of traditional construction with a copper box. My own personal opinion is that providing a modern all welded boiler would be the right way to go because this is undoubtedly what would have happened if steam locos had continued to operate in service in 2021. Such a boiler of this size could probably be had for about £120K, a lot less than most boiler overhauls of larger superheated locos. I'm not sure of the cost of replacement wheels and axles as I've never bought any but, being outside cylindered, the axles are going to be straight and easily machined from wrought bar with no need for forgings. Even cylinders are becoming cheaper than they once were with the advent of poly-patterns. In all, I'm sure that a major overhaul of 488 will still come in cheaper than the overhaul of a 4-6-0 of the sort that is increasingly being carried out.
     
  7. johnofwessex

    johnofwessex Resident of Nat Pres

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    I remember @Jamessquared explaining why returning The Adans Radil to service wasnt a good idear bit when about those loco's that did run in preservation in the past but havnt run for years - the GNR Atlantics, The Compound, yest I will mention them again, Thundersley & Hardwicke
     
  8. A1X

    A1X Well-Known Member

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    Maybe start a new thread on that only it seems quite off-topic for a thread about the Bluebell
     
  9. Paul42

    Paul42 Part of the furniture

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  10. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    From the BRPS General Secretary:

    BRPS becomes a Company Limited by Guarantee

    Yesterday (Jan 1st) marked the Society’s transition from an unincorporated association to a Company Limited by Guarantee, as approved at the Society’s EGM last October. All current members have been transferred to the new Company. The Society’s name remains the same as we have been granted exemption from using “Limited”, so we appear on the Companies House website as Bluebell Railway Preservation Society, company number 13745313, registered in England. All the officers and trustees are now Directors of the company but will continue to be called Trustees.​

    Tom
     
  11. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    A little museum-y snippet in the latest Bluebell News: as well as having obtained the “Remembrance” nameplate and plaque from the L class Baltic No. 333, the museum has also been able to acquire the “Stroudley” nameplate from sister loco 2332. This is one of the curved splasher-mounted plates from when the loco was converted to an N15x. I’m sure it will be on display in the museum in due course.

    Tom
     
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  12. MuzTrem

    MuzTrem Member

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    Whilst there are valid reasons for adopting these methods, this is a good illustration of the point I keep trying to make - and which many enthusiasts struggle to understand - about why restoring old engines isn't always the right thing to do. Once you start using modern materials and construction methods, you are making the engine less authentic. (Note the distinction between "original" and "authentic". I.e., authenticity means that, even if you accept the loss of historic material, you should try to replace it with authentic materials and methods where possible, to keep the engine as close as possible to how it would have been in the steam age.)

    This is not necessarily to say that this should prevent 488 being restored. One could argue that, since she is not a member of the National Collection and therefore not deemed to be of national importance, it doesn't matter. But I think there is a strong argument that, as the last survivor of her type, we should try to keep her as authentic as possible.

    In any case, there is an equally strong argument that, if a very high percentage of an engine's fabric needs replacing, it would be better conservation practice - and possibly more economical in the long run - to build new. Plus, it gives a chance to fill another preservation "gap". If you have your heart set on a 4-4-2T, you could do a lot worse than recreate a Marsh I3, which would be very appropriate for the Bluebell. Or you could choose a GNR or LNWR type, if you prefer something from North of the Thames...

    Sent from my SM-A125F using Tapatalk
     
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  13. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    That's a post with which I share much sympathy, especially as the I3 is firmly on my WIBN list too. Hell, I'd settle for an I1x as even more appropriate to the Bluebell. Unfortunately, it seems a lack of drawings, specifically those for a distinctive LBSC bogie, stand between the WIB and the N. Of course, if anyone turns up some decent appropriately detailed photos of one of these machines (or a 'K') in Brighton Works, it would help immeasurably.

    As regards boilers, there's surely a valid case to be made that these are a 'consumable', meaning that for so long as an original remains to fill the historical brief, a pressure vessel produced to modern standard, even if that's welded, would provide a working machine.

    With the best will in the world, preservation of an inanimate loco comes with a price tag. In the case of 488, prerhaps it's status as a sole survivor justifies such cost (assuming the funding to permit such is assured). In two other cases, with Boxhill and Ellerman Lines safely ensconced in the NRM, the same doesn't apply to Terriers or Merchant Navies ... not that 35029 is going anywhere any time soon!
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2022
  14. MellishR

    MellishR Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    Was a detailed assessment made of how much of 488 would need to be replaced to make it operational? If it was, but some time ago, would it change in the light of later experience with other overhauls and new builds?
     
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  15. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    I believe the dome cover and possibly the buffer heads have some life left in them.

    Seriously, though ..... at what point does continuing repair and replacement mean the loco is still the loco?

    I wonder how many who supported the restoration of Welsh Pony realised how much actually needed replacing (I've seen the same sentiment expressed concerning both Talyllyn and Dolgoch)? I was one who wanted to see it back in steam (and was delighted when the fire was finally lit), but I'll confess to feeling a bit uneasy when the new component list stretched past cylinders and onto the main frame. In that specific case, I justified my own views by reasoning the loco remains on it's original railway and the latest work continues very much in the spirit of previous rebuilds by Blodge, going back well over a century.

    In the case of 488, where does one draw the line? A new boiler seems perfectly reasonable, but what if new cylinders, wheelsets, or frames were needed? Would it be preferable, perhaps even more cost effective to build a facsimile, perhaps of 125 or 520? I merely ask the question, as I certainly don't pretend to have answers.
     
  16. Paulthehitch

    Paulthehitch Well-Known Member

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    Very sorry to disagree with you for once. As far as I am concerned, the same issues applied to Welsh Pony as 488 and the fortuitous availability last year of the latter is well known.

    Perhaps the rapid progress with 563 will inspire 588 also to be progressed.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2022
  17. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Perhaps a start on 80100? ;)

    My comment, that I have no answer, was heartfelt. All I'm expressing are a few misgivings, not outright opposition. I recall vote by the TRPS to declare Talyllyn an 'operable relic'. Thank goodness John Bate disagreed! Normally, I default to the view that the best way to preserve something is to keep it in working order The only thing giving me pause with 488 have been posts on here listing a considerable litany of woes. I wonder, do those perhaps seem more significant on a loco lacking the power to haul today's peak services? Maybe it says more about today's perceptions of economics than it does about engineering capabilities?

    On the FfR, let's be honest, as fortuitously as it turned out, no-one (barring someone who'd make me seem ridiculously optimistic!) could've forseen Welsh Pony jumping straight back in at the deep end. I'd not be surprised to learn it's clocked up more miles across two seasons than anyone thought likely in ten. Just for the record, count me among those who'd love to see EoM back in service.
     
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  18. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    There are obviously several arguments surrounding this subject, all of which are valid. The Bluebell is first and foremost an operating railway and not a museum so it is arguable that, if they want to use 488 then it is reasonable to adopt an economic approach. If, however, 488 is considered to be solely a museum piece then it is arguable that you perpetuate the exact design and workmanship if you want to see it in steam. I don't have any problem with either approach, especially if the original boiler and other parts are kept. After all, it is very hard for someone to look at and appreciate the original boiler whilst it is on the loco. One thing I am particularly keen to to see preserved is traditional methods and skills but I'm also a realist and would rather see something operating than simply sat in a museum because to use traditional methods is cost prohibitive. I'm firmly in the Coiley-Bellwood camp when it comes to the locos and other items in the National Collection and believe that, wherever possible, they should be living museum pieces. Not all at once, though!
    On a related subject, one thing I'm particularly looking forward to seeing is the firebox from 563. The workmanship carried out by the boilersmiths to repair it is that of craftsmen of the highest skill. It is something I'd probably never be able to do if it had remained a museum piece and the decision had not been made to replace it.
     
  19. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Not, however, according to it's charitable status. Just one more item to add to the list of competing considerations!
     
  20. Alan Kebby

    Alan Kebby Well-Known Member

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    35030 hasn’t been going anywhere since it was scrapped in 1968.
     

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