North Yorkshire Moors Railway General Discussion

I am one of those who believes that the NYMR in recent years has become too focused on trying to become a money-generating machine instead of paying equal attention to the charitabke objectives. This is a fundamental mistake since the charitable objectives, if well fulfilled, are what generate enthusiasm among volunteers and visitors, leading to donations, legacies and a thriving organisation that attracts grant funding. It's an important point because the "if we don't fix xxx the line will close" cry will wear thin after a while - someone will eventually say "so what? It's not really a heritage asset nowadays, there's nothing special about it you could see similar locos, carriages and wagons at other tourist railways all over the country". That's why the NYMR (and all other heritage railways0 need to do more than just offer a ride in MK 1s that weren't specific to anywhere in the country, behind equally widespread types of loco, and generate a more appropriate individual regional feel and picture to what they offer The NYMR doesn't really seem to care about that very much, something that seems to permeate from the top down.

 

Surely making money enables the NYMR to fulfil its objectives! But I certainly wouldn’t say it is a money-generating machine particularly in today’s climate when costs such as coal have doubled in just 1 year.

 

Why has some of the teak stock migrated though?

 

I thought the lunchtime departure ex Whitby is not ECS in the 2022 timetable, thus available for Jo Public. Intending passengers would just have to buy a single fare for that particular train (un reserved seating) then a single fare on the 15.00 ex Pickering (reserved seating). Or better still, I’d buy a return ticket for the 10am departure ex Whitby but simply catch the lunchtime departure…

 

The teak stock can often be found on the Pickering Grosmont services, and whilst I do understand some private stock has migrated elsewhere there are equally teak coaches currently being restored on and off the railway for use on the NYMR.

 

If there are teaks which have left the railway, and the railway wasn't bothered by them leaving, then why would the railway want to bring in any more??

 

I'm completely confused by the ticketing arrangements- I thought the only way you can get to/from Whitby is with a full line return? I can see single fares for internal services but nothing to/from Whitby.

Looks like you have to spend a good few hours at Whitby on Gold timetable before you can return. Okay for a family spending a sunny day on the beach, but if you've pre-booked and it rains all day that's a long time to spend in the arcades and chippy.

Jon

 

The 9.20 ex Pickering arrives Whitby 11.10 with the normal return of 14.00, which for most passengers is just the right amount of time for visiting Whitby, but there would be nothing stopping them returning on the unreserved 12.35 ex Whitby.

 

Quite!

Pretty much every attempt to make a profit by running a railway has ended in failure. Heritage railways tend to be more successful than others because they generally don't need to worry about delivering shareholder value in the form of dividends or capital growth. However even after the benefit of un -paid volunteer contribution there's typically a huge gap between their annual operating surplus and essential annual investment to maintain their future viability.

If you're dependent on £1/2 a million or so of discretionary income to balance the books you don't have much choice other than to focus on money generation! Indeed the primary duty of directors and trustees is to ensure, as best they can, the financial health of their business.

A typical complaint from members, and especially volunteers, is that the railway isn't being run in a way that satisfies their personal preferences. The debate over Whitby operations is a good example. The vast majority of the NYMR's paying passengers ( who, in effect, enable the volunteers to enjoy their hobby) want to travel to and from Whitby. Aaah, say the critics but we should be persuading them to pay for heritage more in keeping with what we as members or volunteers want to see. By all means seek to educate and persuade. But at the end of the day you have to provide what the customer is willing t0 pay for. If that's a tourist trip to the seaside then of course we should try to educate and enthuse them about heritage. But we can't thrust it down their throats by restricting what's on offer to that which appeals to members and volunteers.

The old adage that the Customer is King is just as true of heritage railways as it is of any normal business

It seems to me that inherent tension between commercial operation and member/volunteer preferences is the root cause of much of the disatisfaction expressed on these pages. Supporters don't, by and large, become a members of a heritage railway company, or an incorporated charity, as an investment. Their interest is in what the entity does and how it does it. As an example operating the NYMR teak set may seem more important than the bottom line. However company and charity law, including the powers and duties of directors and trustees, assume the investment model. I concluded some time ago the the incorporated Community Benefit Society model is more suited to heritage railways as it is nearer to the members' preservation society origins of many of them. Some have transitioned already but for larger companies/charities the complexity and cost is probably prohibitive.

For those that can't there's an interesting analogy with some of the Premier League football clubs. Although supporters join the Club they often have no say in its decision making. Players are bought and sold, managers hired and dismissed, and even ownership of "their " club can be transferred without so much as a by your leave. A Government research study has suggested new structures that provide the fans with opportunity to make their views and suggestions known . That seemed like a great idea for the heritage railway and tramway sector. It's not been finally approved yet but a substantially revised draft of the Heritage Railway Association Members' Code of Conduct suggests that its members should create regular opportunities for member/volunteer consultation on the strategy and performance of their business.

That could give members and volunteers the confidence that their voices are being heard.

.

 

So, I arrive at Whitby at 11.10 and start my day with a stroll around the shops and a wander up to the abbey. Having done that I feel like a bite to eat in one of the pubs. The chances of me doing that and getting on the 14.00 are a bit tight; knowledge gained from past experience. In any case, I’ve spent a small fortune in getting to Whitby by train so I want to make the most of it and not be rushed. So I want to travel on the last train back. Which I can’t.

 

It's a shocking timetable. As a lot of people are saying, the Whitby tail is wagging the dog. The lack of a loop at Sleights or a shorter section than Glaisdale - Whitby really hampers a decent Whitby service, so the internal services suffer.

Someone on the NYMR forum has handily added all the services into one timetable. If you do the first train out of Pickering on a Sunday morning, you end up at Grosmont for 3 1/2 hours before the first train south! I'm sorry, but there is absolutely no point in going to the railway that day. What do you do on a wet Sunday in Grosmont for that long? It must be frustrating for the crews as well to end up sitting around for hours on end.

I know Whitby is where the money is, and the vast majority of passengers want to go there, but it seems to at the expense of excluding everyone else.

 

Edit - misread the timetable.

Is the 12.35 unreserved though? Everything on the website seems to say pre-booked tickets only on Whitby services.

 

For the avoidance of doubt, you can catch the 12.35 ex Whitby on Gold but not on Bronze, even though the train still runs. Gold in only 30 days of running, though.

 

12.35 is unreserved, I suppose the website would look a bit messy if it gave every ticket variation.

 

Thanks for this- I must be missing something, as looking at this page Seaside Special | North Yorkshire Moors Railway - NYMR the return for the 09:20 on Gold is at 16:35, I can't see where it says I can take the 12:35?

Jon

 

Afternoon All,

One of my recent uploads to YouTube is a further instalment of the archive video shot on the NYMR in the summer of 1992. It was filmed from the train on severe gradient through Newtondale behind a WD 2-10-0:



Hope it's of interest.

The earlier instalments can be seen here if anybody hasn't seen them:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLFsbViNeGSHkPmgikUW0ViCnDvrkB5UQ-

TTFN,

Ron.

 

The 12.35 is ecs on Bronze. On at least one occasion last year it left at 12.00 as the Northern train was running very late and would have significantly delayed a 12.35 departure. I know as I was driving. Guards may have discretion to carry passengers but it is not advertised as such, which is why it can leave early.

 

Sorry, I'm just coming back to this business after being otherwise occupied. Opinions will probably remain divided over whether the attempted "takeover" of the WSSRT was justified or not, but it concerned one of the WSR charities, not the PLC. Company law was therefore irrelevant to that particular dispute, except inasmuch as the rationale for attempting a "takeover" was that without a change of direction by the WSSRT there was no chance of gaining enough shareholder votes to change the PLC's direction.

The concern remains that the proposed new rule for the NYMR could allow a similar closed shop to develop there in future.

 

The 12.35 was ECS last year but runs as a passenger this year, both in the Gold and Bronze timetabke.

 

You CAN catch the 12.35 ex Whitby both on the Bronze and Gold timetable.