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SVR General Discussion

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by threelinkdave, Aug 20, 2014.

  1. Johnb

    Johnb Nat Pres stalwart

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    When I last saw figures, which wasn’t that long ago, the membership figure was over 12000
     
  2. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    That's where you are making your fundamental mistake. Volunteers don't come for free. It costs them money (often quite a lot) and whilst they are doing that, they aren't doing other things. There are plenty of volunteers who happily pay a tradesman to do work for them at home or take a days leave whilst they help the railway but their time has a price.
    I'm afraid that your attitude of he gives his time for free so I can take photos at less cost than if it was paid staff won't win many friends and lends more weight to just why it shouldn't happen.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2022
  3. flying scotsman123

    flying scotsman123 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Of course our time has a price, but it's a price we're generally willing to pay, that's the point of volunteering. In return, we get enjoyment from doing our hobby, and the railway generates a small profit. Sure it's not much, but with your own maths, the railway makes £1000. That £1400 you assigned to volunteer costs is not money the railway has to spend.
    We're both volunteers, and if that's how you feel about it that's absolutely fair enough, I can certainly see where you're coming from. But I'm certain that there are enough people who see it like I do, and would jump at the chance to be involved in a photo charter, for it to not be an issue. Equally I can also appreciate that the SVR has concluded it's not worth the general hassle despite what I've just said, which is a shame, but their prerogative. Give us another year or two on the GWSR and we'll have just as good a GWR goods set here to do charters with instead. :)
     
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  4. Herald

    Herald Member

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    Surely the issue is that all railways are different and whilst some may be easily able to facilitate a charter the complexity of doing so may be far more difficult at others, particularly those with longer and more complex infrastructure or longer traffic days or service intensities. As to "costing" volunteer time a wholly volunteer operation may have a different approach to one where elements of operating a charter involve paid staff in shunting or other operations to enable the charter and disrupt paid staff from normal duties. A volunteer track gang may enjoy watching a charter a paid one having to delay or change its routine may be a real cost.
     
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  5. Johnb

    Johnb Nat Pres stalwart

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    That’s not what I said. Volunteers do so because they want to and enjoy it, that’s why they give their time, it’s optional. When someone starts to get a bit stressed our volunteer organiser says, remember it’s only a hobby. It cost me in fuel or fares but then so does railway photography and going out hill walking, it’s just three things I enjoy doing.
     
  6. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Not often I disagree with you Steve, but here I do. Yes of course it costs volunteers to turn up and volunteer - both in actual cost (travel etc) and opportunity cost. But they also get enjoyment out of it, and provided the one exceeds the other in their eyes, who's to say they are wrong? After all, lots of people spend good money to watch football - not my cup of tea, but no-one is saying they shouldn't. It is after all a hobby, and there is a reasonable expectation that you should pay for your hobby - you'd pay for any other hobby after all.

    Across the whole panoply of turns you do, some are more enjoyable, some less so. For me personally, given a regular M-F job, any turn that requires taking a day's leave is more problematic (i.e. costly) than one at a weekend. But if I budget for, say, a max of five midweek turns in a year, using one of them on a charter would feel a better use of my precious leave than, say, a day on SteamLights - even though the gross income to the railway of the charter may be £2,000 and the gross income of SteamLights might be £10,000. The railway would probably prefer to make sure it can definitely cover every day's operation of SteamLights, Santas etc; and it would build its maintenance plan for locos and carriages to ensure that happens; but from a volunteer's point of view, the charter may seem like a more enjoyable (and therefore more rewarding) use of my time.

    Every railway will be different; but even more so in these times, I tend to think the greatest possible diversity of income is good. For railways with high static cost bases (i.e. those with significant paid staff, fixed catering facilities etc) then broadening the number of days operation and cash flow is good, provided each such day covers its direct costs.

    Tom
     
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  7. Kje7812

    Kje7812 Part of the furniture

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    A note of caution that not all railways nor even departments at the same railway are the same. I know some departments that struggle for charters.
     
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  8. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    We'll have to disagree then, Tom. I like my time to be of benefit to the railway, not to enable someone to take photos at less than what would other wise be the market rate if it involved paid staff. I suppose that it depends on whether you enjoy taking part in photo charters. I've been there on more than one occasion and frankly find them to be boring and most unenjoyable and certainly not something I'd willingly volunteer for. It's almost as bad as doing filming but usually that has a better return.
     
  9. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

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    As an outsider, I'd say that it's the awareness of the differences between your two positions that matters and, thinking of @Johnb's position, highlights how the easy profits of a charter may not be all they're cracked up to be.
     
  10. Matt37401

    Matt37401 Nat Pres stalwart

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    Steve, the SVR recently had a 4-6-2 go for running in on its metals, there are plenty of photos and videos of it on social media, another one is going to do the same thing at the end of this week, should I choose so I can watch on the Web cams, there were both paid staff and volunteers (my Father being one) involved and will be involved with 4498/60007 with the running of the former (70000 even made National TV on MOTD with Mark Chapman on the footplate)
    How difficult would it have to have hooked it up to a rake of MK1s and charged 30 to 50 people for the privilege of taking photos?
    Really not that difficult to do or organise when your already running.
     
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  11. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    The purpose of the running in would be to satisfy the requirements of the A4 Loco Society and they would have the final say over what the loco did and whether it was stop or go. Add a third party in terms of a group of paying photographers then you have a clash of needs and demands.
     
  12. Johnb

    Johnb Nat Pres stalwart

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    The answer is simple, if you don’t like it, don’t volunteer for it.
    I don’t know if you are an accountant by profession but some things you cannot quantify by £££. I’ve just done a calculation and my two days last Friday and Saturday meant getting up at 05.30, spending an uncomfortable night in the support coach, all at a personal cost in food and fuel of around £60. I will never do that calculation again as it’s meaningless, I enjoy doing it, enjoy the company and had a cracking day out behind the best loco on the main line.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2022
  13. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    Not an accountant, merely an Engineer who for a long time has argued that volunteers have a value and should not be taken for granted. If I'm doing the same job as someone who is paid then the cost of me doing something is the same as that paid person. Not that I want a penny of it but that is what someone else should be paying for my services in any costing and not adopting the attitude that I'm doing it voluntarily so it doesn't cost anything.
     
  14. steam_mad

    steam_mad Member

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    I probably have a finger in all the possible pies for this one: I'm a photo charter organiser, director of a railway museum & heritage railway and an accountant during the day.

    The beauty (?) of accountancy is that you can often spin the numbers to suit several arguments: @Steve rightly points out that, if costing commercially, at the figures that @Johnb provided it is unlikely you'd recognise much of a profit. That said, if a charter were taking place in the closed season where outgoings tend to exceed income, a charter run at "breakeven" in terms of staff time would still help to improve the cash position that actually pays the salary bill. The important caveat would be whether that time is 'slack' or whether by using that costed volunteer or staff resource you're not completing essential maintenance with that resource that allows you to run a bread and butter service.

    Alternately, as others have said, I know volunteers who will go above and beyond to be involved in charters - and will do it in addition to their regular voluntary/staff duties - because they enjoy it. Would they give that time to the railway for another task? Not sure. In that scenario even if the labour only covered its cost it would be beneficial to the railway (there being no 'opportunity' cost for the time).

    I think, whilst stated here, the sometimes altruistic nature of volunteering is underestimated. I volunteer because I want to recreate, as closely as possible, and photograph historical steam scenes that I was never able to witness as I am only in my 20s. However, as someone tasked with running a heritage railway/museum, I also accept that the visitor offering has developed to a point where realising that ambition that is not always possible on a regular basis, e.g. running goods and mixed trains, and more commercial products are of far greater importance.

    However, If I am not able to fulfil my ambition as a volunteer then I may well go elsewhere. Since Covid I've been responsible for approximately £500k of income for the railway I volunteer with through roles as fundraising lead, business development and retail improvements. What represents better value for the railway? Running a charter that will likely bring some cash benefit (but likely not as much as a normal running day) or losing my services as a volunteer? A very personal example but the principle applies across all volunteers: you have to give them enough of what they want to keep them doing the tasks that they may not find quite as rewarding.

    As a side point, through the photo charters I've run I've introduced several volunteers to the railway including one who went on to become a successful Chairman of the organisation for almost four years and another who has since become the guards coordinator. Both first came to the railway because they wanted a day out with their camera!
     
  15. Matt37401

    Matt37401 Nat Pres stalwart

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    And how many photos or videos of it will there be on social media? It’s not a secret what it’s doing there, As I say I can watch it from the comfort of my armchair should I choose so, some of the footage I’ve seen of 70000 involved seeing some people in slightly dubious locations.
    Why not organise something that doesn’t involve people putting themselves or the railway at risk?
    I’ve said what I’ve said but I think that some of those in management at the SVR need to ask themselves what their motive’s are, are they genuinely decent or just what’s convenient for those in charge?
    Not for the first time am I hearing about a ‘them and us’ situation between paid staff and volunteers at the SVR.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2022
  16. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

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    I think it's this that's the core - and where the numbers presented by @Johnb veer uncomfortably close to saying any net income must be a good thing, no matter what. Even if I don't fully agree with @Steve's approach, his analysis raises some interesting (and tricky) questions about what represents "good value" for promoter, railway, and customer.

    Applying my experience elsewhere, I'm conscious of the opportunity cost of underpricing hire. It locks in some old (especially with costs rising all around) assumptions about cost base, and neglects the potential opportunity cost of being unable to do other things. The running in of 60007 has been mentioned, and I'm with those who find it hard to believe that you can't make something work for all. But, in making that comment, I'm also alive to the reality that advertising a charter to paying customers constrains what can be done in that running in period, and creates commitments that might be in tension with what the running in needs to achieve. Commitments that might be better fixed with more running time, rather than just a "subject to availability" clause.
     
  17. D1039

    D1039 Guest

    The SVR featured on the lunchtime and evening news today with changes to the recently issued timetables (including peak season weekly services to be cut from 7 days to 5 days per week), due to further coal saving measures. There's been an internal communication to staff and volunteers so I presume there'll be a public one soon.
     
  18. Ruston906

    Ruston906 Member

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    Does not look good for high summer then with only Coal until may.
     
  19. Pete Thornhill

    Pete Thornhill Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Administrator Moderator Friend

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    Alternatively, they are thinking about the potential problem now to avoid such issues…
     
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  20. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    But how much supply would they normally have to hand in March? I suspect in a normal season they may have had about one to two weeks in hand at any time, but with a lorry or so delivering every week. My guess is that in a “normal” year the SVR would have used over 1000 tons per year; you can meet that demand having say 25 tons per week (1 lorry) and a contingency of 25 tons: at any point in time you have somewhere between one and two weeks supply.

    A big stockpile is a hedge against future supply issues, but takes up a lot of space and also ties up lots of cash.

    At the Bluebell, I believe we also have enough supply to last into May. The aim is to ensure that whatever else happens, we can run our planned Easter holiday service. The irony is that I have never seen so much of the black stuff as I did last weekend - in previous years, with more reliable supply chains, we would have been closer to buying only just before it was needed. But all that coal has had to be paid for a long way in advance of the fare revenue that will be hauled by it.

    Tom
     
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