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North Yorkshire Moors Railway General Discussion

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by The Black Hat, Feb 13, 2011.

  1. D7076

    D7076 Well-Known Member

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    Most passengers want to travel to Whitby because that’s the only passengers NYMR seem to want to cater for these days ,apart from the four days of the steam gala .
    I’ve not looked in detail but if you manage to find the well hidden proper timetables I understand there are several gaps in services on a Sunday hindering the opportunities to keep going up and down the hill.
    Enthusiasts seem unwanted the remainder of the year ,sadly .
    The joys of going up and down the hill all day between Levisham and Goathland are something the management don’t seem to want to understand or cater for these days .
    Thankfully other railways are available ,sadly not with similar scenery or gradients .
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2022
  2. Anddy

    Anddy New Member

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    I do think it's sad that there's not technically a day rover system in place for this year but all heritage railways especially considering coal prices are rising have to maximise their revenue and minimise their costs. If enthusiasts who wanted all day all service tickets made up a higher percentage of travellers than those who simply want a return to Whitby/Pickering then they probably wouldn't do it this way. It would be interesting to see if more people attend their galas now rather than simply attending on regular service days.
     
  3. 61624

    61624 Part of the furniture

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    Sadly, the NYMR management sees its future as being a tourist line, based on the Torbay model. Make the most of it while you can, my fear is that it has launched itself on a downward spiral.
     
  4. Cuckoo Line

    Cuckoo Line Member

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    I suspect it is about getting a model to survive these new times and where you can maximise revenue for least cost. If you have to reduce/reschedule because of coal availability/cost then return trips are probably the governing factor in the equation.
     
  5. 61624

    61624 Part of the furniture

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    That is undoubtedly true, but heritage is becoming a less important feature of what is on offer and the emphasis is moving to optimise Whitby services. That is probably the thing to d to optimise the money coming in from fares but runs the risk of alienating enthusiasts who provide the bulk of the volunteer workforce and also cash donations (I'm willing to bet that they don't get many bequests from non-enthusiasts, for example)
     
  6. Gladiator 5076

    Gladiator 5076 Part of the furniture

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    You make it sound like that is somehow a bad thing.
    All heritage railways are tourist attractions, the ones that have daily running for a sustained period (the often named premier division lines) perhaps more so than the smaller ones. They should be catering to what their identified market is, and I suspect on a normal running day that is one return trip. The current economic situation may make that even more important.
    Yes my ideal day would be to just keep going up the hill to Goathland, over the footbridge back to Grosmont and do it all again on an hourly service interval. But whilst I may not be uniqure they would not be enough wanting to do that to sustain a railway, let alone one the length of the NYMR.
    Railways now more than ever need to have the ability to be flexible and change their offerings at short notice if the current one does not meet the tourist need.
    And yes as much as some may not like it, like any business, and the rest of life, it is all about the money.
    HR's do have the benefit that like us fools who buy shares in airlines, there are those of us that are prepared to buy shares, contribute to appeals, or in most lines cases actually have to pay (via a membership fee) to volunteer your free time.
     
  7. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    And I think the risk that @61624 is pointing out is that that support (cash + time) has a significant value, which is probably of existential importance to 95+% of heritage lines in the country, and therefore lines need to be careful not to alienate it.

    Tom
     
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  8. Sidmouth4me

    Sidmouth4me Member

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    The photocopy timetables are usually available from the booking office on the day of travel (certainly from Pickering, not sure about Levisham) together with rostered engines. Also you only have to book the first outbound service if catching a Moors Explorer service, and which is done purely to manage passenger loadings; alternatively and on the day of travel you can book, subject to space, a return trip Levisham to Goathland on a Seaside Special (with reserved seats), then you can travel there and back on that particularly service or any of the Moors Explorer services running that day.
     
  9. Platform 3

    Platform 3 Member

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    Interested to know what you think the solution is? Lots of people want to travel to Whitby, which sucks up resources. You can obviously market other trips, but short of stopping going to Whitby and therefore reducing your market I'm not clear what the answer can be.

    Sent from my SM-G770F using Tapatalk
     
  10. oldmrheath

    oldmrheath Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for this. Pleased to see there are better options than first appeared possible and good to see them being promoted

    The 'Whitby Hopper' timings work for me, and as we also like the Rail Trail Walk it seems we might use the railway twice during our visit to the area

    Jon
     
  11. Cuckoo Line

    Cuckoo Line Member

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    I guess it also depends how you define heritage. Heritage could be a steam service with age related coaches that steam from say Pickering to Whitby and stop at all stations. Even as a tourist attraction emphasis success won't come unless there is that oldy world aspect.
     
  12. 61624

    61624 Part of the furniture

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    I'm trying to answer a few posts with one here, so I do hope readers will bear and stick with me!

    Of course we find ourselves in unprecedented times at the moment, and we have to recognise that for the time being at least some things may have to change - I certainly recognise that, but in my opinion the NYMR has to try to break the stranglehold that Whitby operations has on it. I've written a number of time that the seven miles from Grosmont to Whitby have become the tail that wags the dog. When the railway first embarked upon Whitby running it was to generate extra funds to carry out the bridge repairs that were known to be looming, but as far as I can tell it did not help at all, the reason being that whatever extra money was made has been swallowed up in complying with NR requirements for using those 7 miles of track. What's more the NYMR has to fit in with scheduled main line services, restricting the access it has to the branch and imposing limitations on the use of locos and rolling stock that aren't allowed onto NR. IMHO the NYMR management has to be brave enough to return to a situation where Whitby reverts to being a sideshow, not the main event.

    It seems to have been forgotten that the NYMR was already very successful prior to Whitby running and was already generating large annual operating surpluses. My preference would be to revert to that (the worst bridges are done now, anyway) and look at redeveloping the railway on more "Beamish" lines with more for visitors to see and learn about at every station. There are numerous opportunities to do this, ranging from the line's origins as a horse drawn railway via the industries it served (e.g. 3/4 stations had narrow gauge industrial tramways serving them, two had watermills alongside them, there were timber sidings, banking engine sidings at Goathland summit, as well as the more general agricultural industries and the separate but immense potential of the National Park and its natural history that the railway runs through.. But, as far as I can see, there are no forward looking plans or aspirations or even desire to make the railway more attractive in its own right, just a general aim of carrying more and more passengers to Whitby without overcrowding in standardised Mk 1 sets hauled largely by Black 5s and Standard 4 locos. I seem to be out on a limb, but I want to be able to look for more than that from a heritage railway that purports to be an educational charity.
     
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  13. Cuckoo Line

    Cuckoo Line Member

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    I must admit there always seems to be a wow factor elsewhere when the stock is either grouping or earlier and people get excited when the engine is around 100 years old or more. Also some railways seem to have more accessible loco , coach facilities which even if you can,t always go in you can look into and that seems popular also.
     
  14. Southernman99

    Southernman99 Member Friend

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    For me, Whitby has always felt like a ring around the neck. Ive often thought would a 2 part service work better and still not detract from the overall product. Ie keep the NYMR internal services and have 1 set just doing Grosmont - Whitby? Removing the need for numerous FTR exams for NR locos, having a set of carriage almost dedicated to the "northern" leg, reducing overall costs of upkeep on carriages to NR standards.
     
  15. Sidmouth4me

    Sidmouth4me Member

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    IMHO, with a 2-part service; either all Pickering-Whitby bound passengers would have to change trains at Grosmont, and is that technically feasible given the number of through-passengers involved on a busy day? Or, as I suspect, such passengers would simply not travel, in which case the numbers of train run could have to be reduced to match the reduced demand to something not dissimilar from the existing Moorland Explorer and which usually has the teak set operating one of the diagrams (and last year often paired with the J27). Mention has been made of the NYMR enjoying a large operating surplus pre the Whitby services, but even comparing like with like I wonder would that still be true today given the increased operating costs (ORR compliance, not just NR, cost of coal more than doubling etc).

    So, overall, if running a 2-part service I just cannot see any advantages in terms of either cost savings or of improving the “Heritage” ambience, and even then what is wrong with running the ubiquitous Mk1 coaches which themselves must be approaching 60 to 70 years of age, older than the majority of the intending passengers? And I can’t see anything wrong with Black 5s come to that matter. I certainly think it would be a sad day if Grosmont-Whitby services were to be operated with just 1 set as suggested, and I for one would not be travelling as often on the NYMR; and certainly not to visit Whitby by train (30 minute car journey compared to a 1hr 40min train journey with a change of train at Grosmont, the car would then win every time, and even would the competing 1-hour bus journey).
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2022
  16. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    Operationally splitting the line at Grosmont would work very well and has been suggested by more than one person. From the passenger perspective it would be ver unpopular. Set changes occasionally take place at Grosmont necessitating this change of trains and the passengers can be quite vocal in their complaints, having to upload everything from bags to children, walk from one platform to another, perhaps in the rain, and then do battle to again find a seat. This set swap is also a uni-directional flow; imagine the chaos if it was bi- directional, which it would have to be? That’s possibly 700 and more people moving around on Grosmont’s platforms. Not the most sensible from a safety point, either.
    What’s needed is for NR and Northern to give up the line to Whitby but that h is a only something to dream about. It would also involve the NYMR taking on responsibility for nine expensive river bridges, another non-starter.
    IMHO the real reason for the introduction of pre-booking is to control overcrowding of trains. That has to be a sensible move but the knock-on effect is understandably unpopular. The alternative of controlling numbers by cost charged would be even more unpopular, though.
     
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  17. MellishR

    MellishR Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    The last few posts suggest that there is absolutely no way to please everyone. So what is "least worst"? For the volunteers who give their time to keep the railway running, does it matter how many trains run to/from Whitby and how many stay on the NYMR itself? For the people who go for a ride (whether enthuisasts or others), how many are happy to ride through to Whitby and how many will go elsewhere if they can't get a ticket to ride up and down all day? How much custom actually originates at the Whitby end?
     
  18. 61624

    61624 Part of the furniture

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    Doesn't controlling numbers by pre-booking imply a loss of income, though? People are less likely to book on other trains that offer less time in Whitby. Perhaps it is timefor the NYMR to g back to the Coastal Communities Fund and tell them that a second platform at Whitby was not enough by itself.
     
  19. Andy2857

    Andy2857 Member

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    Would improvements to signalling on the Esk valley line go some way to resolving the issue? Grosmont as an intermediate block or the reinstatement of a passing loop at Sleights?

    Appreciate this may be no less aspirational than the solutions Steve mentioned above, but at least don't involve the NYMR taking on the extra infrastructure.
     
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  20. 61624

    61624 Part of the furniture

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    The NYMR wouldn't be any more able to tackle signalling changes than it would to tackle the bridges - it all belongs to NR and their gold-plated prices have to be paid for them to do anything - that's why the second platform at Whitby cost so much and took so long. The new potash mine was supposed to be paying for a new passing loop between Grosmont & Whitby to increase line capacity (primarily for commuter trains to bring their miners in) but they have been beset by financial difficulties and that plan seems to have fallen by the wayside.
     

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