If you register, you can do a lot more. And become an active part of our growing community. You'll have access to hidden forums, and enjoy the ability of replying and starting conversations.

Locomotive Performance & Timing

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by misspentyouth62, Mar 30, 2022.

Page 3 of 4
  1. srapley

    srapley New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2008
    Messages:
    78
    Likes Received:
    103
    Occupation:
    Aerodynamicist (by day)/CME 35011 (spare time)
    Location:
    Burton-on-Trent
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    That's what I was thinking, but wasn't certain. Thanks!
     
    srapley, Apr 13, 2022
    #41
  2. Allegheny

    Allegheny Member

    Joined:
    May 8, 2015
    Messages:
    625
    Likes Received:
    308
    Gender:
    Male
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Or maybe even Kgf or Newtons:)
     
    Allegheny, Apr 13, 2022
    #42
  3. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    May 30, 2009
    Messages:
    21,153
    Likes Received:
    20,933
    Location:
    1016
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Oh dear, I fear you may be slipping into the same category as people who insist on giving speeds to the nearest half mph, or worse. But by all means enjoy an Easter egg or eggnog even. :)
     
    Big Al, Apr 16, 2022
    #43
    Sheff likes this.
  4. RalphW

    RalphW Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Administrator Friend

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2005
    Messages:
    35,514
    Likes Received:
    9,194
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired-ish, Part time rail tour steward.
    Location:
    Northwich
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Can't be as bad as those who quote their timings to 0.1 or even 0.01 of a second. :rolleyes:
     
    RalphW, Apr 16, 2022
    #44
    YorkyLad, Romsey, Big Al and 1 other person like this.
  5. Sheff

    Sheff Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2006
    Messages:
    7,590
    Likes Received:
    2,391
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired Engineer & Heritage Volunteer
    Location:
    N Warks
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Yes, read a report like that on here the other day. Was hard going and the phrase “delusions of accuracy” sprang to mind.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
     
    Sheff, Apr 16, 2022
    #45
    Bluenosejohn, S.A.C. Martin and Shep Woolley like this.
  6. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2011
    Messages:
    25,727
    Likes Received:
    24,334
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Grantham
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    The risks of spreadsheets, and the spurious accuracy they engender.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
    35B, Apr 16, 2022
    #46
    Sheff and Bluenosejohn like this.
  7. MellishR

    MellishR Resident of Nat Pres Friend

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2009
    Messages:
    8,131
    Likes Received:
    5,214
    Not a new problem of course: think CoT and Rous-Marten.
     
    MellishR, Apr 16, 2022
    #47
    Sheff, Bluenosejohn and Copper-capped like this.
  8. Mike Wylie

    Mike Wylie New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2009
    Messages:
    178
    Likes Received:
    313
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Engine Driver
    Location:
    12B
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Not really, engines are designed to be fired by one man. The maximum sustainable output of the fireman is how the engine should be worked. That then raises other questions about 'Blue Riband' validity. If the engine is coming off at Hellifield then Ais Gill is very different to an engine and fireman coming off at Crewe or York for example.

    You can play of course to see what they can do but its not a true test of man, machine and environment.
     
    Mike Wylie, Apr 17, 2022
    #48
  9. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    May 30, 2009
    Messages:
    21,153
    Likes Received:
    20,933
    Location:
    1016
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Interesting and valid comment. Are we trying to 'break' the fireman as well as the loco with these feats of strength? Maybe a discussion for this thread:
    https://www.national-preservation.com/threads/locomotive-performance-timing.1420905/
     
    Big Al, Apr 17, 2022
    #49
  10. torgormaig

    torgormaig Part of the furniture Friend

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2007
    Messages:
    4,460
    Likes Received:
    6,609
    It is easy to forget that back in the early '80 the BR Chief Medical Officer (no doubt with union support) had decreed that a fireman should be replaced after no more than 80 miles. This was because after a decade of working on diesels the pool of experienced volunteer firemen were likely to be less fit than they were to say nothing of being older. For a while they could only do York - Scarborough one way as a return was 84 miles. I cannot now remember when this ruling was relaxed.

    Peter
     
    torgormaig, Apr 17, 2022
    #50
  11. RalphW

    RalphW Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Administrator Friend

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2005
    Messages:
    35,514
    Likes Received:
    9,194
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired-ish, Part time rail tour steward.
    Location:
    Northwich
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    What sort of distances do you work now Peter, I suppose though it depends on continuous or whether there's a reasonable break somewhere?
     
    RalphW, Apr 17, 2022
    #51
  12. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    May 30, 2009
    Messages:
    21,153
    Likes Received:
    20,933
    Location:
    1016
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    I suspect that the unions will be in the background somewhere on steam charters except for those working for companies on a zero hours basis.

    For example, on a Surrey Hills that's about five hours on the move, the DB crew changes sides of the footplate half way. I don't think that West Coast has that flexibility; you either drive or fire. That said, on a CME doesn't the fireman change at Carlisle?
     
    Big Al, Apr 17, 2022
    #52
  13. Mike Wylie

    Mike Wylie New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2009
    Messages:
    178
    Likes Received:
    313
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Engine Driver
    Location:
    12B
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    We change around sometimes. Some of our young lads like to fire complete turns to prove they can do it.

    On the above point, i was firing the Brit on 'that' run South over Ais Gill. It was great but there is no way i would have made Crewe and was glad of a rest from Hellifield. So in my view the performance is a bit of a fake. I'm not saying it wasn't fun, just not that real.

    Maximum sustainable output of the engine/man is an ever moving goalpost. To see a fireman and engine working in the 'sweet spot' to use human aerobic performance terminology is a great thing to witness.

    I've listened to the majority of Peter Handfords recordings from all regions and you rarely hear an engine being worked extremely hard which concurs with i think Peters comments on this subject in the thread.
     
    Mike Wylie, Apr 17, 2022
    #53
    S.A.C. Martin and torgormaig like this.
  14. RalphW

    RalphW Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Administrator Friend

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2005
    Messages:
    35,514
    Likes Received:
    9,194
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired-ish, Part time rail tour steward.
    Location:
    Northwich
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    I wouldn't think it's anything to do with unions or the zero-hours contract basis, but rules laid down in law similar to road haulage with specific rest periods and hours for rest between turns.
     
    RalphW, Apr 17, 2022
    #54
  15. Fred Kerr

    Fred Kerr Resident of Nat Pres Friend

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2006
    Messages:
    8,260
    Likes Received:
    5,273
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Freelance photo - journalist
    Location:
    Southport
    It's interesting to think of BR days of the early 1960s when Crewe supplied firemen who were expected to work trains to Euston or - the classic case - the Crewe - Perth leg of a Euston - Crewe service or the classic Saltley - Carlisle 9F turn. I once travelled with a Camden firemen who described one Crewe - Euston run where they left the footplate at Euston (for the disposal crew) then went to the "local"; he claimed that he couldn't / didn't taste the first three pints as he had sweated so much on the footplate.
     
    Fred Kerr, Apr 17, 2022
    #55
  16. 30567

    30567 Part of the furniture Friend

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2012
    Messages:
    5,647
    Likes Received:
    3,535
    Reading Pete Johnson's books with the descriptions of firing on the Crewe to Perth and Crewe to Glasgow lodging turns, I can really tune in with what you say Mike.

    It seems to me that you can do something very simple like measure the times between A and B with a 12 plus coach train and a standing start from A. That tells you purely and simply what went up there fastest. Or you start controlling for all sorts of things--- firing, wind and rain, whether the line speed was exceeded, tsrs. Then you are looking for the most meritorious run, but you are in the realm of the hypothetical. On my sums, with no tsr at Griseburn, Tornado would have been very close to the record that day, but would the fireman have been able to maintain the firing rate to permit 55 mph plus throughout the climb? We will never know.

    A few years ago, I was thinking we would never see sub 20 minutes again with years of tsrs at Waitby, Griseburn etc attending to the cuttings and in some years a shortage of class 7/8 power. So, great, well done to all concerned.
     
    30567, Apr 17, 2022
    #56
    Mike Wylie likes this.
  17. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2006
    Messages:
    11,975
    Likes Received:
    10,180
    Occupation:
    Gentleman of leisure, nowadays
    Location:
    Near Leeds
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Where are these laws?
     
    Steve, Apr 17, 2022
    #57
  18. Mike Wylie

    Mike Wylie New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2009
    Messages:
    178
    Likes Received:
    313
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Engine Driver
    Location:
    12B
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Industry practice mainly based around Hidden following Clapham.
    I believe the fireman on Tornado did it all on his own from what i've heard. Amazing performance i have to say if true. Chapeau!!
     
    Mike Wylie, Apr 18, 2022
    #58
  19. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    May 30, 2009
    Messages:
    21,153
    Likes Received:
    20,933
    Location:
    1016
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Well I can think of one trip I was on when there was a problem and the crew was still at work in the early hours of the next day. Definitely not within employment law but the people involved were probably thinking at the time of getting their passengers home and very grateful everyone was, I am sure.

    By contrast I can think of another occasion with a different TOC when the morning departure was delayed because the late return on the previous day didn't allow a sufficient overnight rest period for the crew.

    I'm not pointing any fingers with these examples just saying that if you are in a union/rules based situation then whilst the regs may be frustrating they also protect the staff. With loco performance nowadays we are often talking about people who have already retired and whilst their enthusiasm may keep them working it's not a healthy situation. So actually, the question is whether we should expect what we often do from those on the footplate.
     
    Big Al, Apr 18, 2022
    #59
    Spinner and 35B like this.
  20. Jimc

    Jimc Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2005
    Messages:
    4,058
    Likes Received:
    4,685
    Occupation:
    Once computers, now part time writer I suppose.
    Location:
    SE England
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Aren't rules about rest periods and the like intended to protect the passengers at least as much as the staff?
     
    Jimc, Apr 18, 2022
    #60
Page 3 of 4

Share This Page