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A2 60532 Blue Peter

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by big.stu, Nov 3, 2014.

  1. torgormaig

    torgormaig Part of the furniture Friend

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    Very interesting. Now it seems that I can tell the difference between lighter and darker shades of Middle Chrome Green and also lighter and darker shades of Brunswick Green, but what on earth is the difference between these two greens themselves, apart from the name? Like GW 2 cylinder 4-6-0s they look the same to me:confused:.

    Peter
     
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  2. twr12

    twr12 Well-Known Member

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    “Brunswick Green” is a choice of 3 shades of green on BS381C.
    225 Light Brunswick Green
    226 Mid Brunswick Green
    227 Deep Brunswick Green

    BS381c was developed in the 1930s as an a standard range of colours for industry and civil service use.

    As has been pointed out many times, British Railways Express Passenger Locomotive Green was a unique colour based on GWR Express Passenger Locomotive Green, or whatever GWR called it.
    Legend has it, that each regional Loco Works was issued with a colour card, by BR Derby, that the painter at the Works had to mix their own paint to match.
    This would be variable depending on the eyesight of the paint mixer, the daylight on the day, the quality and cleanliness of the original colour card.
    And, paint fades with sunlight and weathering.
    Plus, photographic records are also variable, in processing, printing and ageing.

    It’s no wonder that some people have tried to standardise on BS381c 227! At least it’s repeatable.

    To confuse matters more, some green locos; eg 34067, are painted in BS381c 224 Deep Bronze Green.

    Link to one of many websites about BS381c

    https://www.paragonpaints.co.uk/BS381C-Colours.html
     
  3. Sam 60103

    Sam 60103 Member

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    70000 failed the week before in the Blackburn area whilst hauling a northbound CME. It didn’t run on the mainline again until 2010?
     
  4. Paul42

    Paul42 Part of the furniture

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    By Richard Green from Southern Locomotives website : ,-

    British Railways Green

    What colour was British Railways Green? It's a question that is often asked, and who better to respond than Richard Green, whose Locos-in-Profile fine art prints have featured Bulleid Pacifics in several liveries:

    When the Big Four were nationalised to form British Railways, one early task was to choose new liveries for the locomotive fleet. Several different experimental liveries were tried, generally based on those used by the old railway companies, and the decision was made to have four variations. Class 8 passenger locomotives were to be blue with white & black lining with other passenger locomotives in green with orange & black lining. Mixed traffic locomotives were to be black with LNWR lining and freight locomotives just plain black. The blue livery was soon dropped due to it not being hard wearing enough.

    The green livery chosen for passenger locomotives was in fact the same as that used by the Great Western Railway, with minor variations to the lining. The green colour used by the Great Western was middle chrome green and this is the colour specified by the Railway Executive with samples sent to the various paint shops. The chrome orange lining used sits very harmoniously on middle chrome green owing to their common origins. However after research into longer lasting finishes the formulation of the green was altered in 1956; this used Monastral blue and a new yellow pigment marketed by ICI and gave a slightly darker shade - nearer deep bronze green. Whether Swindon changed to this new formulation it would be interesting to know! I believe that Deep Bronze Green, produced by Willamsons of Ripon, is now used by preservationist as the best match available.

    Brunswick green is often used when describing Great Western and British Railways green, but is completely erroneous and it seems to have been started by the model railway fraternity in the early 1950s. Recently there have been some preserved GWR tanks running around in colours that look suspiciously like proper Brunswick green, so maybe they got what they asked for! Brunswick green can be seen today on preserved SECR locomotives and is sometimes referred to as 'Chatham' green, it also seems to have been the green used by the Great Central Railway.

    [​IMG]
    1. Deep Bronze, as used by BR from 1956 2. Middle Brunswick 3. Middle Chrome, as used by GWR and originally specified by BR 4. Middle Bronze 5. Olive 6. Deep Brunswick.


    So, how to describe the green used by British Railways in any period? Maybe the best option is to just call it BR green!

    Some of the above information has been taken from LMS Locomotive Profiles No. 11 : The 'Coronation' Class Pacifics by David Hunt, John Jennison, Bob Meanley, Fred James & Bob Essary. This book gives a complete account of the liveries carried by the Princess Coronations and can be highly recommended to anyone wanting detailed information on the class.

    Richard Green (January 2014)
     
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  5. Matt37401

    Matt37401 Nat Pres stalwart

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    You could well be right, as I say 60532 was a decent substitute for 70000, I really can’t over state how much affection I have for Blue Peter.
     
  6. Sam 60103

    Sam 60103 Member

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    Sadly I’ve never seen 60532 run which is a great shame. I’ve also never seen 7029 or 45596 run which I hope to change in the next few years by travelling round the country a bit more as I don’t think I either will run in Scotland.
     
  7. Matt37401

    Matt37401 Nat Pres stalwart

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    We all have a list of those we’ve never seen in action (but we’d like to see) for some reason I seem to repel Merchant Navies and B1’s.
    Standard Tanks and Ivatt moguls do seem to rather like me though!
     
  8. Sam 60103

    Sam 60103 Member

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    Saw BIL in April. Somehow a B1 has alluded me. Seen N0 9 a lot over the years and also Flying Scotsman and in the last few years Tornado.
     
  9. Fred Kerr

    Fred Kerr Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    As one of those who travelled behind 60532 on its last run from Edinburgh to Aberdeen (albeit only as far as Dundee) I too have a fondness for the old girl. 60532 was running upto the end and was the 3rd Pacific (the others being 60019 / 24) which worked on the Glasgow - Aberdeen - Edinburgh circuit until 60019 worked south to York - and preservation - on the railtour on the Sunday after the final running of Glasgow - Aberdeen steam-hauled workings. It will be nice to record her over the S&C since my last image taken in 1993 and my last main line sighting on the WCML in 2001.
     
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  10. Jimc

    Jimc Part of the furniture

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    When I was doing colour matching professionally decades ago I remember finding BS standard shades to be rather muddy and a pain in the neck to colour match. If we could get the customer to agree on something based on a small number of pure pigments rather than match a BS shade then the colours would look clearer and more attractive and also be easier and cheaper to match. However, as implied by Mr Green, quoted above, you would be rather stuffed if the pigment became unavailable or a cheaper alternative required, and I imagine it would have been necessary to agree a new shade with the customer.
     
  11. Richard Roper

    Richard Roper Well-Known Member

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    To my eyes, Middle Chrome Green has a yellow / Ochre tinge, whilst Brunswick Green has a blue hue to it. This might sound daft, but I think of it like the difference between the grass on my lawn on Millstone Grit in Halifax, and the grass on the Limestone areas around Horton and Malham. Both green, but totally different in colour, albeit due to different mineralogy of the rock, rather than the mineralogy / pigment of the individual colour mixes.

    I hope that makes sense. Reading it back, I'm not sure it makes sense to me!

    Richard.
     
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  12. MarkinDurham

    MarkinDurham Well-Known Member

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    So looking forward to 60532 running again here. I did a Bradford-Carlisle & return (The Waverley) on her in March 1993, then her first trip out after her post-Durham rebuild (Middlesbrough-Sunderland-Gateshead-Carlisle-Crewe), and then her last main line run in 2001 (Crewe-Shap-Carlisle-Tyne Yard-Darlington). I did one trip on the NYMR with her in late 2002, just before her ticket ran out - she was definitely in need of TLC by then.

    Bring on the A1, A2, A3, A4 gala!
     
  13. bluetrain

    bluetrain Well-Known Member

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    That's also my understanding. To picture Blue Peter and other LNER Pacifics in various colour schemes, see the RHDR loco fleet:

    https://www.rhdr.org.uk/locomotives/
     
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  14. 46203

    46203 Member

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    158-48 60532 Howe & Co 06 Mar 1993051-Edit.jpg

    6th March 1993, re-start after getting a 'red flag at the box' due to the starter signal having suffered a snapped wire.
     
  15. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    A couple of historic liveries missing there ... Southern Maid in particular has carried it's share over the years. Can't say the LBSC umber grabbed me (I think it was the slab sided tender which was a bit overpowering), but the french grey suited it well though allegedly didn't photograph well on overcast days (I'd love to see how today's digital cameras would cope where colour film failed) and the full-on SE&CR finery was a sight to behold. During it's 'Brighton' and 'French' periods, the Maid wore the same smoke deflectors as habitually worn by No.2.
     
  16. MarkinDurham

    MarkinDurham Well-Known Member

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    Ooh, fantastic. I'd not seen that shot before. Thanks for posting it.
     
  17. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Excuse ignorance, but has 60532 ever carried the ScR blue smokebox door number?
     
  18. torgormaig

    torgormaig Part of the furniture Friend

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    I don't think so, but am happy to be proved wrong.

    Peter
     
  19. ross

    ross Well-Known Member

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    From the Cameo library:

    Brunswick green

    Description
    A green pigment originally composed of basic copper chloride (Atacamite). Brunswick green was developed in 1795 by the Brunswick brothers. The pigment was made by placing Copper filings in an Ammonium chloride solution, then collecting the precipitate formed at the end of one week. By the 19th century, Brunswick green was prepared by mixing Prussian blue and Chrome yellow. This mixture is more commonly called chrome green. it is a fairly permanent color that has good covering power.

    Synonyms and Related Terms
    chrome green; Prussian green; verde di Brunswick (It.)

    Risks
    Discolored by hydrogen sulfide and alkalis.

    Resources and Citations
    • Ralph Mayer, A Dictionary of Art Terms and Techniques, Harper and Row Publishers, New York, 1969 (also 1945 printing)
    • R.D. Harley, Artists' Pigments c. 1600-1835, Butterworth Scientific, London, 1982
    • David Scott, 'Copper Compounds in Metals and Colorants: Oxides and Hydroxides', Studies in Conservation, 42, 93-100, 1997 Comment: method of production
    • Artists' Pigments: A Handbook of their History and Characteristics, Elisabeth West FitzHugh, Oxford University Press, Oxford, Vol. 3, 1997 Comment: B.Berrie, "Prussian Blue"
    • Thomas Gregory, The Condensed Chemical Dictionary, Reinhold Publishing, New York, 3rd ed., 1942
     
  20. MellishR

    MellishR Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    Time for me to trot out one of my favourite quotations, from a colleague at a conference many years ago: "If you are not yet confused, you are not yet informed".
     
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