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Project Wareham

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by David R, Jul 31, 2015.

  1. martin1656

    martin1656 Nat Pres stalwart Friend

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    If Russia don't make us glow in the dark, first, :D, I've not got my crystal balls out yet, so can't tell you what the future is, :)
    As regards the DMMU'S are they fully network compatible, if they are and there is an TOC with drivers that know the old units and routes, could they be hired out for occasional specials, to say, Yeovil , Salisbury , Portsmouth etc.
     
  2. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    It actually occurred there's another serious "con" we both missed ..... "the coal thing". Never just rains, eh? :Woot:

    On that one, I'm seriously hoping someone (with the necessary skillset) gets to grips with the output of CCS (i.e. solid blocks of carbon) and tailors a couple of suitable grades of loco coal. With those narrow Belpaire boxes beloved of Swindon, of course it'll need to be two grades!
     
  3. DcB

    DcB Well-Known Member

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    Mainline station like Southampton, Winchester, Farnborough, Basingstoke, Woking and London would feed well into the Wareham, Corfe and Swanage trial.
    Yeovil , Salisbury , Portsmouth etc are not so easy to connect using the SWR timetable.
    If economic conditions hold up (the last PMQs was stormy today) is a possibility as 31806 and 330012 top and tail could run the Wareham service in 2023, perhaps renting the LU 4TC at low cost (until SR get the Mk1s fitted with locking doors and new toilets?) Then using the DMU on lesuire specials might work out well.
    But getting the trial for 2023
    connecting with SWR mainline lesuire journeys to make an operating surplus will be critical.
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2022
  4. Gladiator 5076

    Gladiator 5076 Part of the furniture

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    Do we think that the railway has sufficient money to fund CDL and retention tanks (assuming locking them out is not a workable option, bearing in mind the Wareham toilets are often locked) for the odd use to Wareham? What would you think the business case is for that and where would you perceive the ROI on that?
    Does the 4TC have retention tanks? I have no idea.
     
  5. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

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    If the trial is a commercial success, then it would be great to see further evolution from that. But, setting aside the need for one step at a time, I would be curious about the level of demand for through trips to other destinations, and whether running such specials would become a distraction from day to day operations.
     
  6. Gladiator 5076

    Gladiator 5076 Part of the furniture

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    I would also think the set that was used on the test run would not have a good enough capacity (at around 288) and the lack of a mainline registered support coach would make anywhere other than Wareham operationally and commercially very difficult with steam and maybe even diesel.
    Most mainline tours whoever operates them appear to need around 8 coaches at least to appear (because none of us know) to be commercially viable. Plus as I understand what has been said the ORR application is not to run across the whole network.
     
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  7. 61624

    61624 Part of the furniture

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    Molehills! (I am unreliably informed!)
     
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  8. johnofwessex

    johnofwessex Resident of Nat Pres

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    The Tallylyn did run a diesel hauled winter service many many years ago and occasionally comes to the rescue when the road to Twywn is blocked.

    A neighbour described the crew in the Llanberis Lake railway getting very excited when an old lady emerged from the woods at the far end for her weekly shopping trip to Llanberis
     
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  9. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    The TR's was FO ECS Pendre to Brynglas, thence to Wharf & return. I'm not sure it lasted into the 90s. Usually No.5 with just the one carriage. AFAIK, no TR carriages have lighting, let alone heating!

    I guess anyone renting Coed y Blaiddiau (a Landmark Trust property) alongside the FfR has to use the train .... unless they fancy a yomp to/from the car. I believe Plas y Dduallt (served by Campbell's Platform) is now connected to both the road network, the national grid and mains water .... how depressingly ordinary.
     
  10. buzby2

    buzby2 Well-Known Member

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    The use of two locos would be costly and the requirement for two crews would require some rostering 'juggling' of heroic proportions bearing in mind not all footplate crews at Swanage have applied/or want to apply to a 'main line link'. That is why the DMU arrangement was chosen [one driver and one guard]. Incidentally, the lack of sufficient volunteers is not restricted to heritage railways of course.
    I'm not sure LU would hire their 4TC "at low cost" to anyone.
    Just to confirm, no it doesn't have spare money for CDL and retention tanks fitment. Like a lot of other organisations, after COVID, increasing costs of fuel, inflation, et al, it is fighting to stay in business without the additional running costs of running to/from Wareham - hence the second trial year was deferred to 2023.
    No it doesn't. So far as I'm aware no vehicles on the LU network have toilets of any sort.
    A support coach should not be necessary to/from Wareham. The 'main line rake' of Mark 1's is 4 TSOs [256 seats] and a BSK [24/32 seats depending on how 'close' passengers wish to sit]. The BSK could act as a support coach but, in that role, it could not carry passengers So this makes the economics even worse for considering main line tours. At the end of this year, I believe, trains must have retention toilets or all be locked out of use. So I think main line work for anywhere past Wareham is impracticable.
     
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  11. DcB

    DcB Well-Known Member

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    I was trying to reply to Martin about special day return services to or from places like Salisbury.
    SWR have a website encouraging lesuire journeys to Swanage and Corfe from the mainline stations, but currently using the 40 bus, which could later use the DMU when the 2023 trial is running.
    https://www.southwesternrailway.com/destinations-and-offers/heritage-railways/swanage-railway

    To come to Swanage from places like Salisbury, the SWR timetable is not straightforward, so it later (after the Wareham service is established) might be possible to run a DMU day excursion if 31806/33012 run the Wareham - Swanage service to link to SWR.

    Renting the mainline certified LU 4TC to deputise for the DMU Wareham to Swanage, is low cost compared to other options, but has not done a railtour for some time and may not have retention toilets fitted yet?.
    Eventually the SR main line rake will be upgraded.
     
  12. 5914

    5914 New Member

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    I struggle to see where the market is for people to taking day trips away from Swanage (a town with a quite small and not uniformly affluent population and which itself relies on day-trippers coming in for its economic viability, and with limited wider catchment area - 75% surrounded by sea!).

    Soon after the main line link was complete there were some exploratory trains starting from Swanage (operated by existing promoters), but they very soon ceased. My understanding is that they were all but ECS from Swanage, picked up a few people at Poole, started to fill at Bournemouth and then became viable at Southampton/Eastleigh pick-ups.

    Assuming that things get to the point where the proposed Wareham-Swanage service is viable with DMU operation (which has, in recent years, never been proposed as more than a seasonal service to relieve the local road network at peak times). To financially justify changing the mode of operation in order to free up the DMU for an excursion that excursion would need to have sufficient passengers willing to pay a sufficient fare to pay not only its own costs but the (quite significant) differential in increased costs for the double-crewed replacement on the Swanage to Wareham service.

    As an aside, unless there has been a sea-change in ORR in the past 15 years, I suspect that the DMU will only be approved for limited use on the main-line (a la the Chiltern 121s) and, given its lower maximum speed and sub-optimal acceleration characteristics (and probably even lower actual speed at some points!), would struggle to find a path beyond Bournemouth in any case.
     
  13. DcB

    DcB Well-Known Member

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    More likely towns off the SWR mainline like Salisbury to Swanage? But can see walking groups could just hire a road coach or use their own cars. But a heratige DMU could be more fun and help road congestion a bit!.
     
  14. John2

    John2 Member

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  15. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Salisbury to anywhere along the coast west of a Southampton by train is a dead loss, because of the need to change at Southampton which adds considerable time to the journey.

    For example, typical journey time Salisbury - Wareham by train is about two hours, compared with about one hour Salisbury - Norden by car. So given the option for a family of “drive to Norden + heritage train to Swanage + beach” or else “Walk to Salisbury station + train to Southampton + train to Wareham + heritage (?) train to Swanage + beach” then going by train all the way sucks over two hours out of the day and is more expensive. No comparison really …

    Tom
     
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  16. DcB

    DcB Well-Known Member

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    I did ride on one of the Sunday 4TC/73 specials from Woking which was good.

    There were good reviews of the Salisbury to Corfe SWR Saturday specials when the DMU was not ready for the 2nd trial. Would have been more comfortable than the bus. Sadly not viable as it got disrupted by strikes and Covid. But still a possibility to return one day?.
    https://uk.railway.narkive.com/xMFHvDzY/salisbury-to-corfe-castle-trip#
     
  17. oliversbest

    oliversbest Member

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    Its been talked about many times but nothing seems to happen ...the Yeovil pen Mill to Yeovil JCT "shuttle"
     
  18. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

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    It was reintroduced (as an SWR service extension) before Covid. I'm not sure whether it has been restored.
     
  19. Gladiator 5076

    Gladiator 5076 Part of the furniture

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    I believe it is a bus in the current SWR timetable.
     
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  20. 5914

    5914 New Member

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    If the market is Salisbury to Swanage, then surely it would make more sense to use a DMU already based at Salisbury rather than have a very convoluted arrangement of increasing the costs of the S-W service in order to free up a DMU to make a lengthy ECS (or, at least lightly-loaded loss-making service) from Swanage to Salisbury in order to position stock?

    I'd still not be convinced about the market from Salisbury to Swanage given the very roundabout route by rail when compared to any of the road options. Are there that many DMU fanatics living in Salisbury!? (And at least one road option feeds into the existing public transport service provided by SR from Norden to Corfe and Swanage)
     
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