7027 Thornbury Castle

Most times stuff like this changes hands because someone makes an offer for something. I understand JJP for example got in touch with Pete Waterman and persuaded him to sell and no doubt agreed a price that they were both happy with. Most times there isn't a big advert. I am restoring a coach for example that I approached the owner with a letter to him, saying would you be interesting in selling it ? He rang me at work and said yes lets meet up and discuss.

 

I don't think that the Std No 1 proposal was intended to be dressed up as a No 7 - rather that 4700 ran with one when new for two years, and finding that it was short of steam, the No 7 was created for the productions series 47xx, and 4700's No 1 was swapped for a No 7.

 

I'm happy that that deal worked out for you. However, if a 7027 group was formed in the past, raised money and then got refused by the owner it would all look rather silly. Not to mention, who would join a group if the outcome was unlikely?

It's not as simple as "a group should have been formed", although I can see that that line of thinking is an easy way to dismiss those that are concerned for 7027 now.

 

Latest from the 4709 group.....

Breathing new life into Thornbury Castle

Last weekend, following the release of an initial announcement concerning the plan to utilise 7027’s boiler on 4709, much has been said about a intention to break up what remains of Thornbury Castle for spares. News from the 4709 Group is that nothing could be further from the truth.

“The 4709 group intended to wait until September to release details of plans for Thornbury Castle's chassis and other components,” says the project’s Richard Croucher. “What we’d intended was to detail our intention to recreate and operate a 1930s era Star class 4-6-0 express locomotive.”

The GWR converted fifteen of its seventy three strong Star class locos to Castles, by fitting a No.8 boiler and lengthening the rear frames under the cab by a foot. This made it possible to accommodate both a Collett cab and the longer boiler.

“Given the promise of a ‘new’ Star, our intention is to recreate and operate it to complement Lode Star's 1930s era design. And, in answer to so many questions from preservation lovers, we plan to use the boiler from donor loco 2861, which will give the project a huge base to work from.”

“The Star will feature authentic dished extension frames and fully external steam pipes. We are also planning the conversion in such a way that it can be easily reverted, while retaining and preserving as many original parts of Thornbury Castle as possible.”

“These will likely include the rear frames, cab, front buffers, mechanical lubricator and many other individual components too numerous to list here. “

Future-gazing, Richard added; “And, should a No.7 or No.8 boiler become available, it would then be relatively straightforward to steam as Thornbury Castle again, clearly demonstrating Swindon’s foresight in express locomotive design.”

“We believe this is the most realistic chance of completing 4709 in a reasonable timescale, Thornbury Castle has of running again, while also adding a 1930s era Star class to the GWR stable.”

 

These people live in La-La Land. If they can barely scrape enough money together for the 47XX (which we don't have), how on earth can they justify asking for money for a loco we already have!?

Whatever their smoking, I want to steer well clear of!

 

Indeed, the highlight for me is that mysteriously another no.8 boiler is going to appear down the line as if by magic.

I am sure Mr Croucher has done plenty of good for the GWS, but I really don't see how he can retain a vice presidents role and the GWS retain credibility after this nonsense, its turning into a scheme that would do that lad (sorry can't remember his name) proud who used to post on here with all manner of half thought out nonsense, these lot just seem a bit more charismatic and get people to believe them and stump up cash .

 

I'd like to know what the "vice president" role is - I slightly suspect it's about an honourable retirement after good work, but if it gives credibility to something this bonkers, then one wonders what needs to happen.

 

Stuart Reeder? Also the owner of a loco without a boiler at one point, and carriage without a body!

Or the copper boiler J39 lot. Or Asbestos Alf. Or the Remembrance Line and their fleet of GPCS R1s. Any others?!

 

This comment appears to have been overlooked but, going back to p 30 on this thread and following it through, the team at Loughborough have done a great deal of work.
The boiler has been lifted. The driving wheels removed. The bogie stripped. The frames stripped of most fittings. The driving wheels refurbished. The tender chassis tripped and refurbished. Many missing parts have been sourced or remade. The frames have been repainted and many new or refurbished parts have been put on.....All since Feb 2020......and a global pandemic!!

 

Some of us have long felt that, wonderful locos though Castles are, the preservation world doesn't really need quite as many of them as it has and that back-conversion of one of them into a Star would be a nice idea. The quotation in post #1204 presents that as the main reason for the purchase of Thornbury. With a spare No.1 boiler already available they would have most of the parts needed. Little if any of the work already done on Thornbury's chassis at the GCR would be wasted. Use of the No.8 boiler for 4709 might perhaps have been thought a good a use for it, but keeping it as a spare boiler for Didcot's (or other) Castles and building the correct No.7 for 4709 would seem better.

If the purchase had been presented in that way, not as destroying a Castle but as back-conversion into a Star, much as Maindy Hall was converted into a Saint, would there have been such a loud chorus of objections? Regardless of respective personal preferences or rights and wrongs, announcing the purchase as (apparently) primarily for the sake of getting an incorrect boiler for 4709 was a bad mistake.

No doubt some on here would still prefer full restoration of Thornbury as a Castle, but would one more Castle in working order really be better than having a working Star?

 

I'd personally rather the 47xx approach. At least, for all it's flaws, it's an attempt to fill an evolutionary gap.

We have a Star, even if it is extremely unlikely ever to steam again. The back conversion of a later series Castle into a Star may give us an operable locomotive, but only if we can believe that it will be an exception to the generally very long out of service periods of Didcot's fleet.

What grates about this particular proposal, in whichever form, is that it takes a viable restoration project and turns it into something else. A Star project might have been a bit less contentious, but still I suspect thoroughly toxic to most.

 

You are obviously involved in the GCR, so would be interested to know about how they feel about the situation, particularly those that have done the work on it up to now. ?

 

Short answer, YES. Because it was in the middle of being restored as a Castle!

I expect most on here would prefer the restoration of the Castle. If you haven't guessed already from the rather large uproar. We have a Star at the NRM. Convincing the public to cough up money for something we already have is going to be a big ask, especially when fundraising is clearly a big issue for the 47xx group already.

 

This just serves to illustrate just how far from reality these folk have strayed. It was obvious that the idea of nicking 7027's boiler would cause a stir and they have underestimated the strength of anger by a country mile.

How do you fit back on the foot of mainframe gas axed of the back of 7027's mainframes when you decide you have had enough of the Star and want to back convert to 7027 again?

The Star nonsense is an insult to the intelligence of anybody who is a critical thinker on these matters given the size of the task involved and factoring in all the other unfinished Barry 10 kit bashing.

It is simply a transparent attempt at a sweetener and no more. One intended to hook the starry eyed with promises galore but be quietly forgotten after a while.

As well as a magic money tree there is now apparently one which grows Swindon designed boilers. Its been planted in la la land.

There is still time to salvage something from all this but that time is running out.

 

I have no evidence to show that GWS are digging themselves into holes but can't help thinking why they didn't come clean in the first place? I've seen HR magazine tweets over the weekend bent on 7027 going for scrap??

It's also worth adding that if Didcot were looking for a spare No1 boiler and an unused Castle for dismantling for 47xx + Star - they've actually been in that position for some years already. Dismantle 5051 or 4079 and jobs a good'un. Both are complete in every way!
I somehow think this idea to cause consternation within GWS circles however and only raise it here to point out the madness of the story slowly unfolding.

 

But as many who are much more literate of the intricacies of GWR mechanical engineering are already pointing out after this latest reverse ferret, she will either need a fair bit of fiddling about below the running board, wheels, cylinders etc, or the proposed 'star' will be yet another kit bashed model which looks like something but really isn't.

 

Yes, he has. Richard was GWS Chairman for 18 years and lead many projects during his years as Chairman and since then. In Feb 2020 he was honour with The Railway Magazine Lifetime Achievement Award for services to Railway Preservation.
( https://didcotrailwaycentre.org.uk/...ward-for-former-gws-chairman-richard-croucher )
So, regardless of what you think of him and the 4709 project, credit where credit is due for his past achievements.

 

I've said it myself in the past, but the more I thought about it the worse an idea it became. The only Castles that are really well suited for back conversions to Stars are 4073 and 4079, and the chances of the 4709 group getting their hands on either of them range from zero to zero. The 5098s especially really are significantly different. When Thornbury was still rusting away with no apparent future it was another matter - better a pseudo Star than a heap of rust, but that ship has sailed.

A Std 1 boiler on the 47 would I think miss the point. Its the big smokebox that makes the beast, and its not just the diameter, the firebox is nearly a foot shorter so a cosmetic casing wouldn't really cut the mustard. There's something of an impression that the 4709 people are desperate to finish the project before they pop their clogs, which is understandable, but if the result is the big picture is lost then wiser heads are needed.

 

I know and I completely applaud all the chap has done for the GWS, but I fear he could do with having a long think about how his legacy is panning out at the moment.