West Somerset Railway General Discussion

Therein lies the question - which needs to be answered effectively on both cost and benefit sides of the ledger. My own hunch is that the additional cost will be significant, because the way that the line's axle load issues came out of the woodwork suggests that the "upgrade" to red from the 1990s ate into the engineering headroom, has used (more than used) that capacity, and now needs not just restoration with a little bit of enhancement but a real upgrade of parts of the infrastructure.

 

As a Bristol-dweller I've very rarely seen the WSR promoted in local media, despite it being the ninth-largest city in the UK.

Bishop's Lydeard is only just over an hour by car, and should access to Taunton ever get sorted, that's only half an hour by train from Temple Meads - less time than it takes for a tram from Manchester Piccadilly to Bury!

 

By comparison the East Somerset and S&DJ at Midsomer Norton appear regularly in the local paper in Frome

 

But it was, only a couple of decades ago. The line wasn't built to a "blue" specification, because the concept didn't exist in those days and it is quite possible that the GWR looked at the line when they brought in their weight classifications and said "that doesn't need to be anything more than a "blue"", so "blue" it became. I don't know, but I'd be surprised if it wasn't the case, that a "red" route would have cost more to maintain.

What, exactly ,is "engineering headroom"? A line's weight limit is set by the strength of the structures, mostly bridges, of which it comprises. That strength is not dependent upon the load put upon them. If they are loaded and don't fail in some way, then the loading cannot reduce their strength. whatever that loading may be. So unless you have evidence that either the higher weight limit actively damaged the structures on the railway or the original upgrade was fraudulent, you have no reason to suppose that repairing structures like Black Monkey Bridge is going to cost any more to allow the line to return to "red" status than it is to keep it at "blue" status and not drop to the next one down or end up with a hole in it when the bridge collapses. Your "hunch" appears to be based on nothing more than a distrust of the motives of the current management and not on any form of engineering analysis.

 

Well there is a case for at least temporarily abandoning Minehead, together with the problematic Minehead Extension Railway, and running from Somewhere-near-the-motorway to Watchet, which is still the seaside and not the middle of nowhere, also keeping the main line connection. There are many heritage lines whose termini are far more central to nowhere than a WSR that ran from BL to Watchet.

 

It's more that the necessary maintaince to ensure the structures and track are in good order, had not been done to the schedule they should have, over quite a few years, As i stated previously, Your PW, is the one thing, you have to ensure is in good order, and is maintained correctly,
Rails Sleepers, ballast, all needs changing at some point, the formation, and structures need to be examined, again, if your PW isn't maintained, you won't be running anything.

 

With personal, very fond memories from 1975/6, when Minehead was very much the main station, it's difficult to conceive that the centre of gravity has shifted so much towards the southern terminus. Without seeing the sort of information regarding ticket sales which I wouldn't expect any line to divulge, I feel that, other than those folks volunteering / working on the line, day in and day out, we're in danger of treating opinion as fact and progressing on dubious assumption.

More and more, over recent months, I've felt the thing desperately needed everywhere is accurate market research and more often than not, that need extends to the wider area in which our lines operate. The WSR is a case in point. From my (outsider's) perspective, two things stand out. The first is it seems the bottom has fallen out of Minehead's tourism market and secondly, that the economics of the product on offer (steam hauled full-line trains) is questionable.

Five years ago, much was made of the Quantock Belle being the jewel in the crown of the line. Question: Is onboard catering still operating and if so, is it doing so successfully?

The one thing which is abundantly clear is that, with the possible exception of Gala events, us lot aren't the bread and butter of any lines' operations. I don't know that we ever were, but for decadez, what was on offer suited (most of) us and (enough of) the wider public. Consider though, if the market has moved on and we haven't ....... need I say more?

 

I don’t believe that shortening the line is a good idea. My base is at Blue Anchor so my day on the line always starts on the first ‘up’ train from Minehead.The train, when it arrives, is always well loaded with passengers whose journeys started at Minehead and Dunster.
I recently spent a few days at Blue Anchor over the period which would have been the (cancelled) Autumn Steam Gala. Every train I travelled on, including the early departures from Minehead, were rammed. I spent lots of time walking the length of the trains searching for an empty seat and finally discovering that standing was the only option.
That said, I wouldn’t advocate closing off the other end of the line. Indeed, my favourite section is that from Williton through Stogumber and Leigh Woods to Crowcombe. It’s great to hear the engines working hard on the inclines; something which many other preserved lines cannot offer.

 

No offence to Watchet, but a silted up harbour and a rocky foreshore isn't most people's idea of the seaside. It's fine for a couple of hours, but not a whole day. There's also nowhere to run round, or space to put a loop in, so loco-hauled services will have to be top and tailed from Williton. Then there's the issue with Doniford and the ever approaching sea. That's going to need massive investment in a few years, otherwise the line will simply be cut back to Williton - the middle of nowhere.

There's also the problem with Minehead (and Dunster as well) being the base of the line. Loco, carriage & wagon and p-way are all based at that end of the line. Yes, there's a small facility at Williton but not enough to keep 25 carriages, a DMU and half a dozen locos in traffic every year. A lot of lines are like that - all the facilities in the wrong place historically for what's required now. But how much would it all cost to move all the workshops to the Bishops Lydeard end of the line? Or do you maintain the rest of the line for non-passenger use to allow transfer of stock?

I don't pretend to have the solution, but I think cutting off Minehead would be the wrong way to go. Especially not when that's where most of your passengers are headed.

 

So here's a left field thought about the length question.

Firstly, for a long line, what is the real driver of cost? Infrastructure is some of it; however one of the big drivers is the need to have several trains in operation even to give a skeleton service over twenty miles. On the WSR, I think that means that even on the lowest days, you really need three trains - that's three engines and say 18 carriages in daily operation. On busier days that might ideally go up to 5 engines and 30 carriages. The maintenance overhead to keep that size fleet running is huge. (5 engines in a day probably needs at least 8 operational in the fleet; that's getting on for a loco overhaul every 12 months - say £500k in loco overhauls annually - and a "from the rail up" carriage overhaul every year even if you work on 30 year life for a carriage).

Equally, the point is well made that Minehead is the key destination, with traffic starting essentially off the M5.

So - how about making Williton - Watchet - Minehead the core journey, but leaving the Williton - Bishops Lydeard - Norton Fitzwarren section in situ? In other words, you essentially have the same offer as now - a journey from "a station to the seaside", but the starting station is at the end of a 12 mile connection to the mainline rather than a 2 mile connection.

How does that help? Well, firstly, Williton - Minehead could easily be operated for most of the year with two trains in operation, so the requirement for serviceable locos and carriages would go sharply down - and that has a major impact on costs, both how much your overhaul budget needs to be, and your throughput of mileage-based exams. At the same time, punters still get their "steam train to the sea" and you wouldn't have to cut fares much, so the per mile ticket price is much better. Other ~ 10 mile long lines are typically charging well over £20 for a day rover ticket, relative to the WSR charging only £30 for a line of twice the length. Swanage charges 60% of the fare of the WSR for 30% of the length.

As for access: starting at Williton rather than Bishop's Lydeard would add about 15 minutes to most passenger's road journeys (for anyone coming from the east), which isn't that great.

What, then, do you do with the ten mile stub to BL (or 12 miles to NF)? Well, firstly it continues to exist, so all the existing traffic from the mainline can continue, notably incoming charters - you haven't severed the line. You also have a nice bit of line isolated from the core system for "value add" services: footplate experiences, filming, training courses etc, which could thereby run free from interference with the core service. That's revenue generation from new markets that aren't necessarily on the same economic cycle as the standard family or coach party core. Galas, of course, would continue to run the full length of the line, and the "rare mileage" would thereby help justify higher prices - indeed, you could perhaps offer an attractive home fleet-only gala in which the rare mileage was the attraction rather than a visiting loco. Or maybe once per month you operate the full line at premium fare, which would also help maintain competence for train crews / signalmen.

The infrastructure maintenance requirement goes down, notably rail wear, because it is used less. (Not zero, but less than if you ran a heavy service over it).

OK, it's left field. But if you start from the premise that (1) a long line is very expensive to operate but (2) cutting the line from either end is not optimal, then it is a possibility. The key to me is to go beyond the simple nostrum "long line = expensive" to try to understand what it is that actually drives cost in a long line,. My premis is that a lot of the cost comes from having to do sufficient maintenance to operate a daily fleet that makes even a quiet day look like a gala on a shorter line. If you can cut a daily requirement from 3 or 4 down to 2, you make a big saving.

Tom

 

It'd be interesting to see, and I agree with the underlying logic. Setting aside the emotions of losing the section south of Williton, my major concern is that Williton is somewhat lacking in anywhere to put a car. With demand heavily car based, how do you then accommodate the demand that is currently dealt with at BL park & ride?

 

Well, you could nuance my suggestion. For example, how many car-borne passengers are there mid week? If the bulk of passengers are coach parties, lack of parking is less of an issue - so maybe you run Williton - Minehead mid week; full line during the weekend? Which is an intermediate state in reducing your stock requirement, and therefore costs. Or maybe full line during peak periods when the traffic justifies it, and half-line at shoulder season when you are still offering a ride but at much reduced cost.

The point being - start with understanding what drives costs, and then think what can you do to reduce that without in the process throwing babies out with bathwater; the two significant babies being firstly the fact that the whole line does exist in situ and has a value; and secondly a steam trip to Minehead is a selling point. 10 miles or 20 miles is not such a great difference.

The other options are (1) truncate the Minehad end (throws away the key destination) (2) truncate the Bishops Lydeard end (throws away any opportunity for incoming traffic; and bakes in the parking problem or (3) find a means to win back 50k passengers per year.

Tom

 

Straight away though, isn't that running into issues with considerablee ECS movements?

 

Since SCC, as freeholder, has already accepted responsibility for coast protection to the railway, that is their problem, not the railway's.

Ah, but is Minehead the key destination? The WSR has always, in preservation, been "the line to Minehead". Is Minehead what people think of as the destination, simply because it has always been the terminus? @30854 was asking for market research, but there just isn't any that can be done, apart from an opinion poll, concerning a WSR that runs to Watchet, not Minehead, as such a WSR hasn't existed since 1874. Watchet has its problems as a terminus, the biggest one being the lack of a run-round loop, however there is space to reinstate the one that existed in the past, so this is not an insurmountable problem.
In any case, I was suggesting a temporary withdrawal from Minehead, which could, of course, be combined with only running Watchet-Minehead on high days and holidays, although I would agree that shortening the operated line and lengthening the connection to the main line could also be a possible temporary option, too, although it doesn't get rid of the problem of Black Monkey Bridge.

 

I think the average grockle, if asked to choose between Minehead and Watchet as a destination, would go with Minehead. I've got a bit of a soft spot for the place, but it rarely detains me more than an hour or so when I go through.

 

Going to take issue there. Not all market research is opinion polling. As frightening a spectre as Richard Beeching might be, was a single passenger subjected to questioning?

I feel there's a very real danger of basing far too much decision making on partially supported or unsupported assumption. Whilst it's easy enough to see ticket sales, even to the extent of how many travel on each service, what information does it give indicative of where best to target marketing?

The way our movement has operated has evolved over the past seven decades (even if we may be hard pushed to realise it sometimes!). Right now, for one reason or the other, the economy isn't in a good place. That doesn't mean people suddenly won't be going out, just doing so less and spending less when they do.

Question: Does sitting back and hoping for the best strike anyone as an optimal course of action?

 

If mindhead is the Key destination . Could Something Like This work , a service Starting at Bishop Lydeard running straight though to Minehead Non Stop. Then a Dmu type service a local stopping service For other stations on route to Minehead . The fast service returns to bishop Lydeard , Following behind the local Stopping Service .

I have always thought that in the summer months the Dmu could do a shuttle service to blue anchor and Back

Any way it’s Just a thought.

 

What are intended customers actually going for? is it a trip to Minehead, or a ride in a steam train, If the weak infrastructure was at the BL end, then you could get away with just running an DMU, connecting with a steam hauled service to Minehead, but it's not, it's at the Minehead end, So, can you afford to not run any service to Minehead, the terminus of the line,whilst that section is rebuilt, probably no, the only option has to be to run something, that won't do further damage to the line, on that section, whilst upgrading it, or you don't run at all from the Minehead end, and close that section down After the Santa's until Easter for a few years, as you relay, and do the work, over an extended closure of the section, but it would mean having to ensure the funds are there and protected so the work can be done, each winter and spring, for as many years as is necessary, until you have carried out the work , can the WSR ensure Thay can put aside each year the sum required to upgrade this section of line, strengthen the bed, and structures to allow heavier axle loadings, If your hoping to be able to run Red route engines, then you have no option but to do the work to ensure you can, and it has to be a rolling project, each year,

 

My impression of the WSR is that there is a 'tidal' Bishops Lydeyard to Minehead flow, out in the morning back in the afternoon then something of an 'all day' traffic along the coast between Minehead and Watchet, which probably might want an hourly service with a DMU

My suggestion might be to get a second DMU so you can run enough trains between Lydeyard and Minehead to keep it 'attractive' for example to pick up latecomers or those who only want half a day in Minehead, or in case the weather turns.