On train catering, Should Steam railways be doing it more ?

I went to the recent carriage convention at Embsay. There were a number of good talks, but one in particular was very inspiring by the railway's commercial manager, Seems ten years ago the Embsay railway, like many, was struggling to survive and more than £100k in debt.

The guy giving the talk said he had started by taking a single old Mark 1 tso, buying some table cloths and then doing cream teas. This had expanded and expanded with different events and more and more coaches used, to the point where both he and the others doing it were now full time paid staff and events were 5 days a week.

This had completely transformed the railways finances and was still growing, with money for many things that hadn't previously been possible and no debt.
The message was that with passengers just turning up and paying say £12 for a ticket to ride, you aren't making any money and barely covering the costs, whereas if they pre book and pay say £29 for a cream tea to ride on the same train, you are, plus with the pre booking you know who your customers are.

They are even now doing a breakfast train in the morning and another in the afternoon so getting two lots of bookings per day using the same train.

Have a look here to see:- DALES DINING | Embsay & Bolton Abbey Steam Railway (embsayboltonabbeyrailway.org.uk)

Are there lessons there that other railways could learn from ?

 

Certainly a debate worth having. First question I'd imagine being which meal(s) you have in mind and on how many days of the week? Sunday roasts may prove lucrative, but if the stock is parked up for the rest of the week, is such provision viable?

I asked a related question concerning the WSR 's catering services. The Quantock Belle certainly used to be a byword for a successful, quality operation. That was earlier this afternoon, so no real opportunity for any reply from someone 'in the know' yet.

I was wondering whether to cite the Isle of Man's very successful dining services, but that's really something unique to a comparatively remote community of a smidge over 86,000 souls where it took lockdown to remind the populace of the jewel on their own doorstep.

Then again, how many of our lines have the staff to operate the evening dining services on the IMR? The final staff there wouldn't get away before 21:00 at the earliest and more likely 21:30

Closer to me, even if the IWSR had a dining rake, it's mileage is half that of the IMR and the Solent is a lot quicker to cross than the Irish Sea. There's actually no precedent on the IoW for onboard lavatories, never mind catering!

Is the NYMR's (in)famous Sunday dining service better known for the excellence of it's food, or for testing footplate skills to the utmost? I've seen comments about both.

I've a sneaking suspicion I'll be finding out how much I don't know about onboard catering.

 

What I observe about the example cited by @toplight is how it delivers added revenue and service as a marginal benefit. That makes it possible to test and scale without the level of overheads of a full kitchen operation.

I therefore take three lessons from this:
1. The importance of focusing on opportunities to grow revenue
2. The importance of focusing on marginal opportunities rather than major investments
3. The importance of having the right creative people in the right place.

Of these, powerful though the first two are, it's the third that is what makes what the YDR have achieved special.

 

Undoubtedly, it is quite amazing the number of railways that only sell a ride behind a steam engine. How many other attractions are still of that mindset and don't try and upsell the experience. How many people are interested in just a train ride?

On the Embsay front, from personal experience the cream tea experience appealed to my family. I'm not sure how they make money on the amount of food they give you.

 

Railway doing financially so well that the (paid) General Manager (in post for around 12 months) was made redundant earlier this year.

 

Having seen the Wealden Pullman (though only from the outside ), I'd seek to delineate a service train, even with an 'At Table' service in a dining car and a full-on dining train. There's also the question of 'on demand' vs prior booking.

Here's a question. How many of our lines would be able to put on a breakfast train, or evening dining train if the market were there? From the perspective of the overall finances of a railway, it's entirely possible that a lower profit per cover (bum seated at dining table) during regular operating hours will better serve the line than two or even three times the profit, if the overheads of providing the service increase disproportionately.

 

As far as we're concerned in Staffordshire, it's not even a debate. The Moorlander dining train has run under various guises continuously since its first introduction in the early 00s (I only joined 2010). Just in my time alone it has undergone three rebrands, to what it is now that is STEAM TRAIN DINING.

COVID forced our hand into altering our timetable, whereby now we only operate a morning trip and afternoon trip. Initially we sold Lunch / Afternoon Tea on the second trip but to avoid running empty on the first trip a breakfast train was trialled and has proved so succesful it's now available every operating day - though the menu has been altered to reflect more what customers do / do not want. This method of operations has created a model where so long as we have around 120 diners across the two services we're into profit, giving the business much better footing and predictability income wise. Up until September we had served over 10,000 meals in 2022 alone and by the end of the season this will be much nearer 11,000! Not bad for a little railway hidden away.

https://www.churnetvalleyrailway.co.uk/experiences-and-dining

2021 saw a Friday evening curry trialed for the first time in a number of years, we used to do Saturday evenings and Wednesday supper clubs but with falling numbers these were stopped around 2016. However the relaunch proved popular, though logistics did prove difficult for ourselves.

So 2022 saw the base 2x trip timetable remain, then Saturdays altered to have an additonal third trip that enabled us to operate the evening train - with a shuttle service between trips 2-3 to allow washing up / prep / staff breaks in between. Curry was alternated with Pie/mash, and once again we've had a succesful season with more enquiries than we've had seats available.

Originally the Moorlander ran with an SO (48 seats) and was supplemented with an FO/TSO if we had a large party. Since the COVID relaunch, the FO (42 seats) has received an overhaul and become the main vehicle with a second SO enabling us to overhaul the original SO to the same standard. A trial charter was run with a third Coach (TSO 64 seats) but this proved challenging to serve everyone within the timeframe possible on our line currently, in practicalities 120-125 meals is what the team can serve comfortably.

So to 2023, the base will remain the same with a morning & afternoon offering. But evenings are going to be developed more with Murder Mystery in the planning as our new service for the new year. The menus once again will be altered to offer a bit more variety, and hopefully the original SO overhaul will be completed to offer a fully refurbished dining set. Future projects are further enhancements; a second kitchen car / third diner / saloon vehicle / bar car - all planned.

We're not resting on our laurels, and the key is to keep the offer "fresh" and avoid stagnation whilst also keeping what's popular available. Who knows what the limit is, but without a doubt the ability to sell a premium ticket such as dining is what will see us through these hard times and beyond.

 

"On-train dining" covers a multiple set of options.
If you go posh you need more people (and skilled ones)
If you go basic, you can't charge as much.

Generally, which roles need to be paid? I would imagine the chef and [head of front of house] are the ones who are most regularly paid. I can't imagine that many catering people working 6 days a weei have the inclination (or energy) to volunteer to do the same on their time off (which will not usually coincide with the preferred time of operation).

Has anybody gone turbo-posh? (ie name chef?)

 

OTD is always a popular choice for passengers or prospective passengers. In the current economic climate you have an awful lot of rising costs to deal with. If you were to light up an engine for say 1 round trip of diners. Cost of coal, loco hire, paid catering staff, food costs, paid staff costs for the day before to prep the train. That £26ph from 10 years ago wont go very far, if at all.
Dales dining is now £28ph. 2 Mk1 FOs? Max seating is then 84. Thats £2352 per train. Cost of coal, roughly £400 per tonne, using 3 tonnes during the day, maybe more. Cost of food rising fast. Cost of paid staff, chef/ FOH. Even on minimum wage, 4 hours the day before to prep + 5-6 hours on the day. Staff wages come to £200. Suddenly the GP on the dining isnt all that great.

Note. This is only an example not pointing any fingers or any diservice on the people that are running the OTD on the Embsay. Im just using the example given.


You have to look at it in so many different aspects now. Passengers/ visitors want alot more for their money. Different levels of OTD/ ideas/ menus/ experiences. Murder mystery has returned to the SVR last weekend. Afternoon teas remain popular, Fine dining is a rare event due to costs but it will be once every 3 months during the 2023 season. There are suggestions of a beer, curry and music night tagging on the back of the dining train on a Saturday evening. 2 seperate events but only using 1 loco and 6 coaches. The fine dining portion, ie the dining vehicles pay for the loco and operation. Add 2 coaches on the back and have 100 people @ £20-30ph for the curry night and you're increasing your GP without having to spend much more.

 

I would go as far as saying a named chef would command a ridiculous price tag which wouldnt be sustainable for a heritage railway. I could see someone like LSL going for it as a one off special but again not a regular thing.
In the railway world, Pullman is the name for fine dining. The Bluebell, and the NYMR (to a point) have that advantage. Again though, the Bluebell dont just offer fine dining. The vehicles are used more intesively and they offer different types of OTD.

 

What about things like Fish and Chips where you buy in the food and simply take a cut of the cost?

 

A point proving there's a fair old way between making sure you've melted your lard on right shovel and a seven course silver service banquet with a vintage champagne.

Many moons ago, a friend who had a catering business remarked that if you measured things on a purely percentage profit basis, nothing came remotely close to the profit on a cup of tea.

 

The GCR has been offering a wide variety of On Train Dining options for many years and found it to be very worthwhile. However they have recently had to spend a lot of money to refurbish the Kitchen carriages and it is difficult to get the latest H & S plus hygene requirements fitted into a Mk 1!

 

One reaps what one sows with on train catering I would say. Higher returns usually available, but high input also required if it's to be successful.

The North Norfolk has a modest dining train by some railways standards (4 mark 1's, 2 seating vehicles and two kitchen cars) but they have cost far more than other vehicles and are a consistent thorn in the side for maintenance staff. Having said that, the set is regarded as a very successful operation utilised for a variety of dining trains, lunches, murder mysteries, gin trains etc. Most (if not all) sell out despite being priced at something like five or six times that of a normal day rover ticket.

The railway understandably regard the operation as a key part of the business model and in recognition of this continue to invest in the product and rolling stock. Much like the Churnet Valley example above, we are currently working on a high quality replacement to one of the four existing vehicles which is currently letting the side down having done 30ish years as a kitchen. The aim is to improve the efficiency and quality of the kitchen, and raise the number of first class seats in the train (currently we have approx 50/50 first/second class seats).

Despite hard times there's no signs that the public have had enough of this product in our area of the country at least.

My personal view if that if a "half baked" diner was lashed together, with poor quality stock or a badly staffed kitchen or both, then you might get away with a few seasons, but it wouldn't be too long before it ran into trouble, financially and reputationally (don't think that's a word!!). Repeat local business is important, so if it's worth doing a dining train, it's worth doing it properly.

Unpopular Final Thought: premium presented mark 1 stock seems to attract plenty of ordinary ticket sales and passenger reviews, so I think the "lack of prestige" compared with using genuine Pullman stock is more than made up for by the simplicity of using "common" mark 1's that match others in the fleet. Pullman looks great but the rebuilding costs of these vehicles are now eye watering and most railways insisting on keeping their Pullman offerings seem to be now trapped into multi-year rebuilds that often spiral out of control and seriously break the bank. I'm preparing myself for a robust counter from railways who have such stock, but as a C&W employee I wouldn't touch one with a barge pole!

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Opportunities will vary from line to line. Th NYMR is moving towards fully pre-booked Whitby services where the most popular trains are the early services from Pickering- Whitby and the late Whitby-Pickering, and given the length of these journeys there ought to be an opportunity to upsell catering on them services, the main problem being the need for suitable coaches. Of course the same will not necessarily be true of other ailways.

 

Chatting on Sunday to a Bluebell volunteer, he was telling me that their evening Fish and Chips trains regularly sell out. I suppose I was surprised as I always associate F and C trains with seaside railways, whilst Sheffield Park and East Grinstead remain resloutely landlocked!

 

Selling out is the "easy" bit. Making a profit is what counts (not knocking the F&c trains, but if they say, have 50% of the ticket price of fine dining at 80% of the costs, then is it worth it?)

 

Doesn't that also depend on the cost mix? So a lower margin operation with bought in food and very low fixed costs might be a more certain prospect than a fine dining operation where many more of the costs are fixed.

 

Well I was assured that the trians make a decent profit, but I have no independent verification of that. My back of the fag packet calculations (which admittedly use assumptions on the current cost of coal and also the cost of fish and chips themselves) did seem to indicate a surplus based on the 90 odd passengers that a full train carries. Of course in the current climate with increased costs at all points in the supply chain and decreasing disposable incomes for most, this will change over the next few years

 

As ever it's identifying the market and taking advantage of it , breakfast, that depends on how early you start running, your refreshment room, might be a better option, but you could always offer it as a prebooked, pre ordered delivered to your seat service, i suppose,
Lunches, if you have a fully equipped dining car, and its already in the rake, then again pre booked with reserved seating, might be an option, but you could do so much more, keep it simple, and offer any spare seats to people who have turned up on the day, on the train, if you have spare capacity, By simple, good quality, but within the abilities of what equipment you have,