Ten for the National Collection?

You wouldn't be so damned sniffy if Harry Wainwright had built it, Tom.

 

You would still be right that it was originally built for plateway, and rebuilt for edge rail operation, but it was still the technical first for edge rail operation, and also was the first, so far as I can see from my (limited) research with two cylinders driving onto a single crank shaft.

You're basically putting the importance of passenger traffic over the importance of coal traffic. I know which one would get my vote. I'm sticking with Billy. As you couldn't have had the former, without the latter, particularly the influence Puffing Billy is reputed to have given Stephenson snr.

 

Am I alone in thinking "Princess" from the FR probably ought to be in there....

 

Recently read Kevin Robertson's latest version of his book on Leader. It's an eye opener, both for the potential and also for the monumentally bewilderingly poor decisions Bulleid took in its development. I think it is clear that a smaller all round boiler, placed centrally, perhaps either with a Fairlie boiler arrangement or a smaller one combined with oil firing (thus allowing proper corridors either side of the locomotive and a balanced locomotive), and traditional valve gear to three pistons per bogie would have produced a workable locomotive that could have gone into service.

The sleeve valves were not necessary and should have been struck from the design when Hartland Point proved beyond reasonable doubt that they provided no advantages in a railway environment over other more traditional setups.

 

I think I'll approach this a bit differently and list the stories that I'd want my collection to tell, and put the locomotives to those stories.

1. Early days, proving the concept of the steam locomotive was workable. Locomotion and the original Rocket.
2. State of the art for the 1840s Railway Mania. Columbine and North Eastern 1275. 1275 would also be representative of 19th Century freight loco design.
3. Mid to late 19th Century locomotive development. Great Northern No.1 and Boxhill. Boxhill would be a good choice to talk about the growth of the suburbs and commuter towns.
4. 1900 to 1940. City of Truro- really the genesis of the 20th Century express passenger loco. Mallard- where the concepts introduced by City of Truro ultimately led. Then either the ROD or a Stanier 8F- the heavy freight locos that won the wars.
5. End of the steam era. Evening Star.

So that would give us a couple of veterans to discuss the birth of the steam railways with, then a couple of very old engines to show why the railways really took off in the 1830s/ 40s, then a pair showing how they developed not only for long distance speed but also shaped how and where we live and work, two that bookend the 20th Century express passenger type and two that close out the freight story.

 

Rocket- sort of obligatory
Terrier- early commuter, if Stepney can be used to explain the beginning of SG preservation movement.
Austerity 0-6-0 War/industry story
Mallard- the pinnacle of express steam
Black 5 The most numerous 2 cyl 4-6-0
FR "Princess"- NG genesis

5700 Pannier- GW representative and example of very numerous class, could carry BR, LT, GW, or NCB livery to tell different stories

A Beyer Garratt- the story of export of UK engineering
92220- The end
35029, Southern and brilliant interpretation piece

 

Not familiar with that book. Got details to hand, please? Tempted to head off piste .... but have elected to behave myself, for the time being.

 

I wonder what Sentinel would/could have made of the concept, their early railcars were virtually power bogies in there own way.

 

(This was copied back off my clipboard ... I was trying to stay on topic, honest!). Perhaps we'll need to take this one off to it's own thread, bit it's an interesting question, so .....)

I always assumed the claimed ride qualities for articulated machines (which covers later railcars, though not early railmotors) to be inherently superior, but recent comments concerning the views of the PW wallahs on the habits of the FfR's double locos gives pause for thought. It's notable that all bar the smallest Garratt designs evolved to include inner, as well as outer carrying wheels.

 

OK, it was a casual comment, and I hadn't totally thought just how hard 10 would be.

There are many themes I'd want to illustrate. Technically, the 0-6-0 and 4-4-0 were the British locomotives par excellence, so I'd want examples of each. You also really need a single driver to represent the nineteenth century. You need something modern, but that can be from Churchward onwards. You need tender and tank loco designs, and superheated and saturated.

In social terms, you need examples to represent how railways transformed society. That could be reduction in delivered coal costs from some early coal hauler; or the development of single-industry railway towns (take your pick from Crewe, Swindon, Ashford ...); the development of commuting and the rise of suburbia; or leisure travel to holiday resorts or more recently travel as an exercise it its own right; opening up of difficult terrain using narrow gauge...

There are other themes: railway enthusiasm; the role in war time; the marketing opportunities afforded by speed, or luxury. Industrial railways and military railways. A regional spread, and ideally a mix of locos built in railway's own workshops; and those bought from contractors to standard designs.

That's lots of stories to tell, so locos are going to have to double or triple duty. Also, perhaps more controversially - you might need to miss the perfect exemplar of one theme in place of something that tells two or three stories well. And every choice knocks out some others - Flying Scotsman knocks out Mallard; Hardwicke knocks out the Stirling Single; an NCC Jeep knocks out a Stroudley Terrier; A Maunsell N knocks out the GWR 2818.

Finally - the locos have to exist of course. No Midland coal-burning engine from the 1860s ...

So my 10, though I'm not convinced I wouldn't make different choices at a different time:

1. Locomotion No. 1 - you need one "primitive" design, but Locomotion gets the nod because of its wider significance in the history of the Stockton and Darlington Railway. Amongst surviving primitive locos, Puffing Billy and Wylam Dilly, Stephenson 'Billy', get knocked out by Locomotion. As does "Rocket" - it made it into the shortlist, but ten locos is really tight, and despite its innovations, Rocket was still something of a transition between the old and the new: it is primarily the boiler that was the technical innovation, but it is still not quite fully formed, and the rest of the loco is closer to the primitive, and I couldn't afford two "primitive" locos. Of course, Rocket also had great historical significance in the development of railways, but so did Locomotion .... So the next choice has to show the new in more developed form:
2. North Star - a loco doing double (or triple) duty. You need a single wheel express type, and initially I thought of Columbine. But the broad gauge was a significant part of our railway story, so North Star gets to represent both the broad gauge and the classic British inside cylinder 2-2-2.
3. Dolgoch - I'm on weaker ground here, and another loco doing double duty. Included firstly as illustrative of narrow gauge railways, which became hugely important abroad; and secondly as the exemplary loco from the twentieth century development of preserved railways into what is now a major strand of railway history and a large industry in its own right.
4. Hardwicke - You need a representative from the latter part of the nineteenth century and Hardwicke gets in partly to represent a typical design of that era, but also because of the role in the "Race to the North" and the late nineteenth century development of speed as a marketing tool. It is also a good exemplar of the product from a railway town, in this case Crewe. Including Hardwicke helped justify excluding Columbine (on regional grounds); it also knocked out the Stirling single and the two NER 2-4-0s, for which I otherwise have a soft spot.
5. Wainwright D 737 - you need a 4-4-0, and this is really the apotheosis of the Victorian passenger locomotive. There are many others preserved: the T3 gets excluded because it is in a distinct tradition removed from the classical inside cylinder designs that flourished between 1870 and 1910; locos like the T9, Butler Henderson and Gordon Highlander start to show modern features. I wanted a loco to end the nineteenth century with, and 737 is it (albeit built just after the turn of the century).
6. SR 1874 N class - If 737 is the last "old" loco on the list, 2818 is the first potentially "modern" loco. But 2818 is not quite the final deal, hence ... 1874, the ultimate template. Superheated Belpaire boiler, two cylinder, outside valve gear, long valve travel, everything "get at-able" in Maunsell's words. 40 years later BR was still building locos to that exact template, differing only in finesse around the edges. The N also gets to tell some other interesting secondary stories, most notably how it almost became a universal standard loco: it took another war for that idea to come to fruition but in an alternative universe we could have had national standards 30 years before they actually happened.
7. Flying Scotsman - because of the stories you can tell. Firstly the LNER careers and the development of high-speed, long distance travel, which was an increasing theme in the interwar years. The mad-dash races to the north of the 1880s and 1890s with flyweight loads tearing up the country in one-off escapades turned into a competition of speed and comfort in scheduled services. And then there is the post-BR career, private preservation and how it became arguably one of the two or three most famous locomotives in the world. (Choosing Flying Scotsman knocks out Mallard, the Duchess, Caerphilly Castle etc: all could tell the story of long-distance, high-speed travel, but not the later story)
8. Bulleid Q1 C1 - You need an 0-6-0; you need goods loco; the Q1 does all that but with radical and brilliant design reacting to the conditions of the war.
   
9. NCC Class WT No. 4 - The suburban passenger tank engine was an integral part of railway history and part and parcel of the social change that led to commuting and the rise of suburbia. There are numerous examples to choose from; WT No. 4 is chosen partly to help balance things on regional grounds (essentially a product of the LMS); partly to illustrate the relationship between UK and Irish railways; partly because it was part of what was a long development series of 2-6-4T locos from Fowler through Stanier, Fairburn, Ivatt and Riddles.
10. Hunslet works number 3890 - An Austerity 0-6-0T. You could choose many such locos, but somewhere you need a loco to represent Industrial users; and a loco to represent the private locomotive businesses. This particular loco was built in 1964, as a reminder that steam locomotive construction didn't end with Evening Star.

That was harder than it looked. What's left out is probably controversial. Nothing GWR after 1837; but of the various locos I considered, all fell to the "you might need to miss the perfect exemplar of one theme in place of something that tells two or three stories well" difficulty. Churchward 2818 got knocked out by Maunsell 1874; an alternative exemplar of the Churchward family (such as a 2-6-2T) doesn't have a Churchward example in existence; and 4073 could have stood in for the high speed, long distance story, but Flying Scotsman is just more famous and has more of a story to tell post withdrawal.

Tom

 

Tom's list raises a question which crossed my mind. Are we talking 10 from the existing National Collection, or "there will only be 10 locos in the new national collection .... you try narrowing it down".

 

Read the rules

You can choose from any currently extant British steam locomotive, not just those that are currently part of the national collection
​

Tom

​

 

3442
4472
4744
4771
4468
60532
61264
62005
DP1
D9000

My list practically wrote itself.

Simon

 

No, I think you're probably on the money there. The two Bulleid diesels and the Raworth Electric probably prove that in spades.

 

Swap 62005 for 62712 and it's pretty much perfect.

 

Ahem ...

We'll have none of your diesel muck in here ...

Tom

 

That raises another issue - where do you stop historically? Tom's list is all pre-nationalisation, although well argued, but Simon's list includes more modern traction (albeit ~60 years old). If we are talking about a national steam locomotive museum, then Tom's list works, but a national railway museum must surely move into the modern era as well. It might also need to include electric working, and multiple unit working (diesel and electric). I'm not even going to suggest how you fit that into a choice of 10, apart from suggesting it's time to move to a bigger building!

Steve B

 

What a novel suggestion!

OK, so I'm taking it being in working order isn't an issue. Interesting you choose Dolgoch, with Princess being the (much rebuilt) survivor of the very first pair or "narrow" narrow gauge locos .... and no look in for any articulated loco. Would William Finlay perhaps serve to illustrate Garrats, an important export product, though admittedly it's scarcely the most representative of the breed, nor of industrial locos generally.

So much depends on which aspect you emphasise. Say, war locos. One out of: Dean Goods, Robinson 'ROD', Riddles 2-8-0, Hunslet 'austerity'?

'Black 5' as the most numerous or (Caprotti) Riddles 5 as their ultimate development? As Obi-Wan Kenobi might have put it, looked at from a certain perspective, the Riddles 5 is therefore also the final development of the GWR Hall. Anyone going to buy that?

"The archetypal UK freight loco" simply has to be an 0-6-0. If it's the ultimate development (though not in terms of brakes) is the Bulleid Q1, but again, atypical of it's breed. Risking the wrath of the Wainwright Appreciation Society, I'd go for a GER Y14 / LNER J15. Why? Long lived, go anywhere locos, with the added bonus of a truly gorgeous livery (which even gives SECR finery a run for it's money, in my books) and the class (though not the survivor) retains one really weird historic record .... I quote from the London & North Eastern Railway Encyclopedia ( https://www.lner.info/ )

The simple design proved useful when the GER set the world record for erecting a steam engine in 1913. No. 930 was assembled in 9 hours and 45 minutes. After being steamed for the cameras, she went straight into revenue service, not returning to Stratford for servicing for some 5,000 miles. This record halved the previous British record of 25 hrs 30 mins (Webb 0-6-0 at Crewe), and stands to this day.

Not sure I can even try. The only three I'm certain of are Locomotion the Y14 and Evening Star

And a ex-MR 1F 1708 or 57XX as representative of all those 0-6-0 tank locos. That just leaves space for the one Scottish loco, so to represent all those 4-4-0s, Glen Douglas gets to survive.


OK .... let the scrappies in

Edit: due to mu whit typinc skilks

 

The question was about steam, and I answered it in that vein. With hindsiight, though, I think the NBL export locomotive returned from China ought to be in the collection, reflecting Britain's time as locomotive workshop of the world.

If we're moving beyond steam - and the NRM is a railway museum, not a steam locomotive museum, then there are other considerations in play.

Personally, I think they've got the locomotive collection reasonably well balanced (no Sulzer Type 2s being the major omission, though they are well represented elsewhere), but are very thin in their collection of multiple units and post-nationalisation coaching stock. And at that point, taking the same challenges as before but specifically for multiple units and LHCS, I'd go for:
1. The NER Autocar - early moves towards non-steam self propulsion
2. The NRM's existing SUB car - commuter rail and early electrification
3. The NRM's existing cl. 108 - Modernisation Plan DMU
4. 306017 - post war electrification, showing choices between DC and AC, and also technological advances on sliding doors
5. Representative of Mk1 SR EMU (probably 4-VEP) - example of adaptability of Mk1 design, and also core outer suburban/mainline stock
6. Class 142 Pacer - archetypal cheap MU
7. IC125 complete set - saviour of BR
8. Class 158 Super Sprinter - 1st serious attempt at long distance DMU to late 20th century comfort standards, also illustrating advances in construction techniques
9. Class 323 EMU - still in traffic, but example of the first attempt to introduce 3 phase drives to the network.
10. Pendolino - APT but actually production ready

In looking at these, I've tried to read across to LHCS development but also see how the locomotive centric view shifts to something much more about the whole train.