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Sir Nigel Gresley - The L.N.E.R.’s First C.M.E.

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by S.A.C. Martin, Dec 3, 2021.

  1. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Am I right in saying Chapelon was never the CME of a French company in the way we’d understand it in the UK? Rather it seems his role was more akin to that of Holcroft under Maunsell, or Bulleid under Gresley, i.e. a technical assistant?

    It looks to me like he was instrumental in providing a fairly small number of modified locos. What were the French doing at the same time across the rest of their fleet?

    Tom
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2022
  2. bluetrain

    bluetrain Well-Known Member

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    Indeed, Chapelon's role on the Paris Orleans Rly seems very similar to that of Holcroft on the SECR & SR. Also, the rebuilding from 1919 of the SECR E-class was analogous to the later rebuilding of the PO Pacifics. The SECR E1 rebuild is nominally attributed to Maunsell as CME, but plenty of others were involved - Maunsell's team of Pearson, Clayton, Holcroft and others, and of course the engine chassis was still that designed by Robert Surtees' team under Wainwright's direction in the early 1900s.

    The French Railways in the 1930s had begun work on main-line electrification, which had included the first section of the PO line out of Paris. So some of the existing steam fleet would have limited life expectancy and there was a reduced need for new steam building. There was scope for improvement of existing stock, but largely by rebuilding rather than new-build. Hence, the relatively small number of new-build locomotives to Chapelon designs.

    WW2 delayed the electrification projects and created a short-term need for new steam locos to make good the ravages of war. That was mainly met through the purchase from the USA of 1300 141R-class 2-8-2s. But in parallel, the French built 318 of the 141P-class 4-cylinder compound 2-8-2s between 1942 & 1952. This was an SNCF update of the older and very numerous PLM 141C-class, now incorporating Chapelon principles. Chapelon himself was apparently part of the design team, but he was not the CME, so the locos are viewed as "Chapelon-influenced" rather than wholly his responsibility. Anyway, the 141P was described by ES Cox as the "World's most efficient steam locomotive". Amazingly, none have been preserved.

    https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/141_P_SNCF

    Perhaps an analogy to Chapelon might be Wilhelm Schmidt, who devised the fire-tube superheater around 1900. Schmidt's work had global influence, beginning on some of the designs of his native Prussian State Railways. But the Prussian engines were not labelled as "Schmidt locos".
     
  3. The Green Howards

    The Green Howards Nat Pres stalwart

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    This is interesting for me tangentially as right now I am reading the 1910 reprint of George Frederick Bird's Locomotives of the Great Northern Railway. Well, for £2.50 at the GNRS AGM it'd have been rude not to buy it! Likewise, I'm also looking at the 1943 volume of Railway Magazine and reading the posthumous script by C. S. Lake about H. A. Ivatt in the series Some Locomotive C.M.Es I Have Known.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2022
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  4. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    So - and maybe I am being unfair here (please tell me your thoughts if you do think this), but...

    I am loathe to place Chapelon, Porta, etc ahead of Gresley as materially he contributed by far more to locomotive and rolling stock design in this country, together with his influence being seen throughout the LNER's publicity and infrastructure departments too. Far from being "just about locomotives", Gresley was a titan within the LNER and he had positive, quantifiable influence that transcended his role's basic requirements.

    So, although I think there are legitimate grounds for questioning the specifics of the conjugated valve gear, I cannot ignore that Gresley did so much. Yes, there are some also rans in the locomotive design department throughout his long tenure, but in getting down to the primary evidence, observing his attendance at virtually every meeting of the LNER board throughout his career, his premiership of the locomotive committee, his dedication to producing some exceptional talent (for which Thompson, Peppercorn, Spencer, Bulleid and Harrison are all notable for having trained and worked under him) and developing their skills and thinking further - I cannot in all good conscience sit as a writer and just accept the secondary evidence in front of me which says he was somehow lesser than those frequently mentioned names above.

    I don't think it is an understatement to say that Gresley may have been one of the most influential CMEs of the 21st Century. To look at his locomotive design policy singly is still a strong argument for Gresley: to take in everything that he achieved and did as CME is to acknowledge what an extraordinary human he was.
     
  5. Jimc

    Jimc Part of the furniture

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    Different jobs though. But we've said this so many times before. The CMEs job is not to primarily design stuff but to ensure that other people design the right stuff.
     
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  6. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    Yes, agree, but for some reason there is the weird pedestal we have put certain engineers on for being able to design high performance or high efficiency steam locomotives but ultimately are ever in charge of trying to run a railway.

    All well and good some writers waxing lyrical about the ultimate in performance without considering the practicalities of providing a service.
     
  7. MellishR

    MellishR Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    On the other hand poor locomotive performance can adversely affect the running of a railway.
     
  8. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    Yes, absolutely. I don't think anyone could accuse me of not reporting that, conversely!
     
  9. RAB3L

    RAB3L Member

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    One of Chapelon's problems was that he made many enemies when he was employed by PLM, caused by his requirement for rigorous testing. He then moved to PO. When the French railways were nationalised, many of those at the top of SNCF were from PLM. That's probably why his great achievements such as 242A1 were hastily scrapped.
     
  10. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    Is 242A1 really that great an achievement?

    One locomotive design that reputedly achieved impressive efficiency.

    How many more were built?

    How good was it in service?

    What were its costs to maintain compared to other locomotives of similar size and power?

    I find there's an element of "emperor's new clothes" to all this.
     
  11. Eightpot

    Eightpot Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    If that was the case, one must wonder as to how Chapelon was able to modify these locos in the first place. It should be remembered that 242A1 wasn't rebuilt until 1946.
     
  12. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    A distinctly (what shall we call it?) 'postwar mindset' may also have coloured the views of some concerning M.Chapelon.
     
  13. MellishR

    MellishR Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    No more were built because, presumably, SNCF management didn't see a need for such powerful steam locos when they had plenty that were powerful enough for the work to be done, and they had already decided on a rolling programme of electrification.
    I don't know what accounts may exist of how 242A1 was used it how it performed in regular service. Anyone able to point to such accounts?
     
  14. RAB3L

    RAB3L Member

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    How about trains of 860 tons between Paris and Dijon:

    https://cheminot--transport-com.tra...tr_sl=fr&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=sc

    4,000hp at the drawbar and 5,000hp at the cylinders? Unfortunately it came too late for SNCF who had already decided on future electrification.

    https://static1.squarespace.com/sta...d122b821d/1441150783767/#+DOMS-1_Chapelon.pdf
     
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  15. johnofwessex

    johnofwessex Resident of Nat Pres

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    Please say more
     
  16. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    No more than, like so many millions of others, he stayed and worked in Vichy France during the war years. I've heard nothing more specific, so am not in any position to make further comment, one way or t'other.
     
  17. Bluenosejohn

    Bluenosejohn New Member

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    There is an unexpected Andre Chapelon chapter in a recent book 'French Narrow Gauge' from Lightmoor. In the early 1950's 2-8-4 and 4-8-4 machines designed by Andre Chapelon were produced for Brazil State Railways and were tested on the Reseau Breton metre gauge system. Extensive trials of one of each type of these state of art machines took place on the RB system in 1952. In the above book there is a photograph of one at the head of a passenger train with a dynanometer van and a Mallett tank acting as a braking locomotive. The trials were successful and 66 2-8-4's and 24 4-8-4's were constructed in French workshops.

    Unfortunately it would seem that once in South America they were not a success and it is suggested that some of them were not even reassembled on delivery and others only lasted a few years. Three were sold off to Bolivian Railways.

    It would seem that they were difficult to maintain with access difficult and unfamiliar features.

    Interestingly in view of some other comments about the accuracy of Colonel Rogers work in other fields he seems to have presented them as a success in his book on Chapelon.

    Some links relating to them are below which may be of interest.

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/124446949@N06/34481347820

    See post 27 10 2011 in Rmweb link:

    https://www.rmweb.co.uk/topic/46539-242a1/

    http://fr.1001mags.com/parution/ferrovissime/numero-7-jui-aou-2008/page-44-45-texte-integral

    http://fr.1001mags.com/parution/ferrovissime/numero-8-septembre-2008/page-28-29-texte-integral
     
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  18. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    My personal opinion of Rogers - specific to the Thompson book he wrote - is that he absolutely played on writing half truths and total fiction.

    Whatever Rogers reported he was sent by Harrison, incidentally, regarding Bert Spencer was refuted quite expertly by Tim Hillier Graves in his books on Gresley, Thompson and Peppercorn.

    I am very much looking forward to his latest work on Bert Spencer, which draws from the latters own archives and memoirs.

    Rogers book on Thompson and Peppercorn remains the closest to me actually burning a book. It is a dreadful tome.
     
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  19. RAB3L

    RAB3L Member

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    So what? He was French! So did Louis Armand (of TIA fame). The latter worked for the resistance and ended up in a Gestapo prison. He was decorated with the Croix de la Liberation. Actually your statement is probably incorrect; Vichy France was the southern part of France.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2022
  20. paullad1984

    paullad1984 Member

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    Lots of bad feelings post war towards the vichy regime, field Marshall Petin who led it spent time in prison after the war, as did one or two others. The rest of France as a whole considered them traitors and nazi collaborators.
     

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