Coaling and watering - working at height

Pretty normal everywhere 'over there', I think. I've seen it in what is now Slovenia in the 70's, and in Germany recently. The key seems to be the long filler combined with a crane arm in rigid segments which makes the process quite simple.
Pat

 

I suggest then that its the way we need to go and sharpish

 

Maybe. It would require the redesign of all water cranes and the modification of the fillers on tanks and tenders. Saddle tanks would be a big problem, there isn't a continental precedent to follow. Some engines would be impossible to modify (think LSWR 0298 Class well tanks, for example).
Pat

 

A lot of continental locos have a tank filler on each side of the tender, not one right in the middle. The problem we've got over here is the sheer scale in variation. As @Dunfanaghy Road says, what about Well Tanks? A 3500 gallon GWR tender is a lot lower in height than an 8-wheeled LNER tender - how do you compromise in designs? To go back to Austerities, the top of the tank is about 11' above rail level. A small GWR tender is about 7'.

A low level filler is probably the best compromise, but may not suit all locos.

 

I don't think you want to do any H&S change "sharpish" - the danger is you introduce some other risk because you haven't properly thought through the consequences.

Hypothetical example: Suppose you deemed that crawling in the motion to oil up the shaft on an inside cylinder loco was too dangerous. You could eliminate the risk - sharpish! - by mandating that crews didn't do it. Which would be fine until you had the first loco that had siezed motion - unplanned stop in section as the best outcome, possibly much worse.

That might be a bit of a reductio ad absurdum, but the point is if you are going to change procedures or designs to mitigate a risk, that needs to be done in a controlled fashion.

As for watering locos with tenders: not the greatest risk in my view. Throwing out a smokebox over a pit has a greater potential, I'd suggest. And in either case it varies from loco to loco: a GWR 56xx is a nightmare; the Adams T3 (when it enters service) will have enough room in front of the smokebox to hold a dance. Likewise amongst watering tank engines - a BR 80xxx requires climbing on the framing; a P class or H class can be done from platform level if that's where your water column is. In fact those locos can easily be done single handed by looping the rope round the cab hand rail.

Tom

 

Froth.

I have been in the position of responding to the aftermath of a fall from height. The individual had been trained. Was using three points of contact and yet unfortunately fell.

The alternatives:
- a gantry introduces new risks as you have to lean out from it.
- a harness was impractical and potentially could introduce new hazards and injuries
- ladders are not the answer

The discussion with the ORR went along the lines of: we can see you have looked at the risks and possible mitigations. We can see that your conclusion is reasonable. We can see that the individual had had sufficient and recent instruction and was under proper supervision. Accidents happen unfortunately.

So my answer is this - it isn’t necessarily the case that grand and expensive solutions are desirable or required. A sense of proportion is required.

what the industry needs to think about is whether these accidents are happening more often and whether there is a pattern or common factors. Then address those. Leaping from perceived problem to solution is going to get everyone in even more of a pickle.

 

And dare I suggest that in the discussion of engineering factors (steps, holds, fillers, water cranes, etc), we've ignored one major factor - the human who is actually doing the climbing.

 

A post from yesterday makes the point.
Railways and People

 

Makes you wonder where our hobby is going. After all, dangerous as our involvement with our beloved steam engines is, there is one widely persued hobby that kills and injures far more of its participants than ours does, namely horse riding. Surely H&S leglisation is not going to start restricting peoples pleasure derived from riding horses. They like us know that there are risks involved and I'm sure do their best to mitigate these risks. Please allow us to be careful, please allow us to be safe, but please do not insist that we be wrapped in cotton wool in the persuit of our hobby.

Peter

 

I don't think that's right. It appears that about 3 horse riders are killed each year. On the other hand, my favourite hobby, motorcycling, kills about 300 a year. Of course, not all motorcyclists see it as a hobby but I think a significant proportion do.

 

One suspects that the death of hobby motorcyclists makes up a disproportionate number of the 300.

we don’t have to wrap ourselves in cotton wool. To not do so though requires sensible leadership that is neither risk taking nor scared of its own shadow. Many of the dafter approaches to risk come from fear and from inadequate training and supervision. By supervision I also mean discipline. Standards and expectations must be high. Otherwise ….

 

Peter, I very much agree with you but, unfortunately the law doesn’t. A horse rider, unless employed is outside the H&SAW Act so can do mostly what he likes. Similarly a person can go rock climbing without any risk assessment or safety aids. Strangely enough so can a volunteer on a heritage railway as he is not at work by the Acts definition of being at work. There is a big ‘but’ to this though,as the railway concerned has a duty of care to both employees and others under sections 3-5 of the Act so although the volunteer may be willing to hang by his toes from the rafters to fill a saddletank those in charge can neither plan for nor allow this to happen so must risk assess and take all reasonable measures to make things safe for those involved.

 

I often remember a ton of coal being tipped on my head from someone who shouldn’t even run his own bath never mind operate machinery he was suppose to be filling the bunker but what ever went through his tiny mind he tipped it through the sunroof of the cab. Still got scares on my head to this day

 

Everyone who has been the one to go up on top of a Std tank, 80xxx, will have the hex shaped burn from the clack valve. It is perfectly sited for a grab handle. You forget the 94xx Tom but the 56xx are a nightmare from start to finish. Dark and cramped to oil up & bloody awkward to dispose.

It all comes back to Reasonable practicable. The ORR are not stupid nor are they forcing the hobby in a direction that would see its demise. What we should be thinking about is How would Steam be operated now? Ever evolving practices and methods. Except the GWR. Found something they liked in 1901 and stuck by it. .

I visited Cite du Train last week and the SNCF tenders all had a linkage down to a handle that operated the tank lid. All well and good if you have a country wide standard for loco tenders. I noted on the 141 TC that the linkage was present on the front of the tank as well.

 

I really wonder how we are allowed we get out bed these days “it’s to dangerous” to even get up to go to the bathroom!

 

My wife fell in the bathroom and knocked herself unconscious. The paramedics who attended told me the bathroom is the most dangerous room in the house.
PS. Don’t tell her I told you this.

 

I am not as confident as you with regard to this. It would suit the government's green agenda very well.

 

This is conspiracy theory at its worst.

 

This is the kind of stuff that gives H&S a bad name.

Health and Safety done well is about making sure everyone goes home safe at the end of the day.

It all comes down to positive attitudes with regard to behavioural Safety, and making good, informed judgements.

Chris

 

So.........

The Twatlington Tramway has just announced that

1. It is fitting its home fleet loco's so that they can take on water from a hose at ground level
2. All loco's will be filled by the start of the working day from the ground
3. The timetable has been amended to allow time to water all home fleet loco's from a standpipe at ground level during the day
4. Water Towers will be retained for use by visiting loco's and as a heritage feature