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CME 2023

Discussion in 'What's Going On' started by Oswald T Wistle, Jan 6, 2023.

  1. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    Agreed. Timing and train logs remain an integral part of the efficiency of the network. For example, how on earth can TOCs get a realistic assessment of time frames for modern traction without people such as those from the RPS compiling detailed logs for them to validate (and sometimes not validate) the computer generated schedules?
     
  2. Linesider

    Linesider Well-Known Member

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    I'm glad you haven't quit the forum and very many thanks for your latest report, which in my view provide some of the most valuable content this forum has to offer. Please keep them coming, I always enjoy reading them, and the on the day updates concerning the presence of a diesel are very helpful to those out in the field (literally).

    It's funny to remember when the late Mike Notley rode in the diesel when 5043 worked over the S&C in 2010 to confirm it did no assisting. Perish the thought now it would seem, and that wasn't that long ago. Just because one can accept a situation doesn't mean you have to like it, and given this forum largely caters for steam enthusiasts and not Joe Public, if certain views can't be raised here it would be a sad day in my view.

    I see the whole thing as a little analogous to the world of live music. Sometimes, for whatever reason, your favourite guitarist may have assistance whereby a session musician plays some of their riffs and solos in a live performance. The more casual fans hear the hits, perhaps don't even notice this detail, and leave more than happy. The hardcore/long term fans are often left disappointed, which they express on the music forums. A sweeping generalisation perhaps but that's how I see it.
     
  3. 30567

    30567 Part of the furniture Friend

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    I guess @Romsey will know, but I presume the base data for the delay attribution scene is driven from what feeds RTT. For example, the whole business about the performance of the Manchester network, Ordsall etc, and the timetable revisions will have been based on delay data. Even back in the day, did the likes of C.J.Allen really have any influence? Whereas I suspect the performance of the peak trains from Marylebone to Aylesbury and vv patronised by the BR HQ staff was scrutinised particularly carefully!

    More broadly, obviously to minimise risk you have two independent power sources on the train. But I take heart from Mr Shuttleworth that they only put a diesel on the back if they have to. Faced with a choice between that and the Saphos approach, I'll settle for that and do my own risk assessment, informed by ongoing evidence.
     
  4. Fred Kerr

    Fred Kerr Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    But I wonder about the evidence. Locally the new timetable shows the Southport - Alderley Edge service cut to back to Oxford Road "to help ease problems on the Castlefield corridor". Pardon ? it still uses the corridor as the only section not covered is the 2-line section between Oxford Road and Piccadilly hence how does this solution help the main problem of trains between Salford Crescent, Deansgate and Piccadilly ?
     
  5. 30567

    30567 Part of the furniture Friend

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    Sure. What they have done is controversial. If the binding constraint is dwell time and paths at Man Picc P13/14, that might be part of the solution. But my point was about data sources. Apologies, rather a long way from the CME.
     
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  6. Romsey

    Romsey Part of the furniture

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    The loss of operational incentive has recently been suppressed by the new DfT contract system. In the earlier days of private franchises, there was considerable room for financial risk taking and innovation. For example , SWT were not made to introduce 4 limited stop trains per hour to Southampton in the early 2000's. The contract said one fast Weymouth and a semi-fast to Bournemouth/Poole. It was a commercial decision to increase trade.

    Health and Safety has nothing to do with the fragmentation of the system. It has everything to do with all staff from different organisations working safely to the same standards.

    Cheers, Neil
     
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  7. Romsey

    Romsey Part of the furniture

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    Two answers in one here -
    The Train Operating company would pay the Delay Attribution costs. The tour promoter may get charged more if their planning / specifications are too wayward.
    Alternatively the TOC or Network Rail may just say "No" to wishful ideas.

    Consequential delays can and do spread. With little recovery time and long journeys we are lucky that things are not worse..
    For example a Holyhead - Cardiff Central service running 12 minutes late at Newport delays a Cardiff - Penzance.
    If the Cardiff - Penzance is about 5 minutes late at Bristol it may affect a Portsmouth - Cardiff departing RT and the right time start of a Bristol to Manchester Cross country service.

    Now try unravelling that sort of issue on densely trafficked suburban areas.

    Cheers, Neil
     
  8. Romsey

    Romsey Part of the furniture

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    Most new rolling stock is built to a specification which is used to calculate acceleration, maximum speed and braking curves to produce section running times.
    These will then be validated by test running.
    If there are regular or at least repeated instances of time lost in running, the section to section running times for any traction type can be adjusted.
    For charters there is a quick fix, but for scheduled trains it can eventually become a "Network Change" which I understand is a ball aching process.
    It's not just the rolling stock which needs to be considered by changes to traction current supply, permanent speed restrictions, signalling changes let
    alone revised train services and affecting timing parameters like junction margins.
    I don't fully understand the process and I am sure it has changed since I left train planning 15 years ago.

    Does that help?

    Cheers, Neil
     
  9. Gladiator 5076

    Gladiator 5076 Part of the furniture

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    The government seem to like delay repay (even at the expense of some of their own legal requirements) as a "sales gimmick" to the public. Forgetting if some TOC's are good or bad at observing it, it will drive a culture back through the system that attributes a delay to someone with as financial penalty, even if that is in effect "wooden dollars".
    I once, when we were doing in touch days where you could work with, or observe, another department had the privilege of attending our daily operations meeting. The company had a stated no blame culture and there was no departmental financial delay policy. The review of previous days delays was supposed to provide learning points. What it had actually become was various departments trying to get one over on other departments to be held responsible for those delay minutes. As and example if an avionics computer had to be changed just before departure, and the baggage loading was late as well Engineering and Ramp would have a big debate (argument?) over who delayed the flight.
    I do not know for sure but I can see the same happening within the disjointed rail industry, it is after all human nature.
    As that ad once famously said "where there is blame there is a claim"
     
  10. sgthompson

    sgthompson Part of the furniture Friend

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    A mate has uploaded a video from 2012 with 45305 unassisted over the S&C. Thought it might remind us of good times.
     
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  11. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

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    It does. None of which is to do with Delay Repay, which is automatic and non fault based


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  12. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    I was on that trip with Gordon Hodgson on the Black 5. We were on time in and out of Hellifield having started from Preston. A steady 35 up to Ribblehead in the snow. Dropped five minutes to the water at Appleby where we overstayed. But we were on time at Petteril Bridge where we were then held for 25 minutes because Carlisle wasn't ready. Late return as a result and coming back over Shap the '5' wasn't punched along as much as on the S&C - different driver - with only 35 at the summit. We were looped at Grayrigg running into Carnforth Loop in a touch under two hours. Chalk and cheese.

    What does that prove? That the Fells are a challenge especially in the winter but a Class 5 with 11 on can be the master of the job on its own and with the right crew. However margins are tight and any weakness in the mix can pose a problem.
     
  13. iancawthorne

    iancawthorne Well-Known Member

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    Ah yes, I remember that one! I took the train to Ribblehead from Carlisle. Having watched 45305 through from the cutting at Blea Moor (in severe conditions, see photo below), returning to the station, points became frozen at the single line section. Nothing could get through for two or three hours, so it was very fortunate the WCME did get through. Once the line re-opened and I took the service train back to Carlisle, 45305 was still there about to leave, a bit late.

    I believe that was also the first London Euston originating Winter CME for RTC.

    [​IMG]
    The 'Winter' Cumbrian Mountain Express
     
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  14. sgthompson

    sgthompson Part of the furniture Friend

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    Spot on Ian . I tried later to get out of Kendal to do Shap but no chance with the snow so did Oxenholme . 5F245DB8-A4F3-4A80-8AB1-BE4625BB077F.png
     
  15. gricerdon

    gricerdon Well-Known Member

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    Wonderful. Black 5s can do almost anything if allowed to. This is how it should be.
     
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  16. torgormaig

    torgormaig Part of the furniture Friend

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    Going back in time reminds me that tomorrow is the 40th anniversary of perhaps the most epic CME of all time, with 5407 and 2005 on the Carnforth - Hellifield leg and the classic combination of 1000 and 5690 on the S&C. Beset with operational issues and deteoriating weather conditions the train was terminated at Appleby, but still gave four locos on the one tour. Here are the Compound and the 5X waiting for their delayed departure from Hellifield and the view from the train passing Blea Moor in a heavy snowstorm. 83-2-5 19 1000+5690 copy.jpg

    83-2-5 26 Blea Moor 1000+5690 copy.jpg

    The same locos worked in the reverse direction the following Saturday. Who would have thought back then that steam would still be beating a path over the S&C 40 years later.

    Peter
     
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  17. sgthompson

    sgthompson Part of the furniture Friend

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    Brilliant blast from the past Peter , wonder if Mr Hodgson was involved with this tour ?
     
  18. iancawthorne

    iancawthorne Well-Known Member

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    What I'd give to have been witness to that double header combination!

    There is a brief overview of that tour on this web site:
    https://locoperformance.tripod.com/edition08/settlecarlisle1.htm

    Magical indeed!
     
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  19. torgormaig

    torgormaig Part of the furniture Friend

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    He could possibly have been (as a fireman?) on the southbound run the following week. The northbound runs were the preserve of the Skipton steam link in those days.

    Peter
     
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  20. torgormaig

    torgormaig Part of the furniture Friend

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    I was reading John Bellwoods excellent account of that trip the other day in the April '83 issue of Steam World. Not too much protection for the crew on the windward side of a Compound in those conditions.

    Peter
     
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